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Where is this Verizon ED-DO signal coming from?

Discussion in 'Northeastern US Wireless Forum' started by Yankees368, Jul 31, 2005.

  1. Yankees368

    Yankees368 Compulsive Signal Checker
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    I was at my friends house today, and someone in his family just got a new EV-DO phone, the LG 8100 i believe. The phone showed that they are in a EV-DO area at their house, but i'm a little confused as to if that is correct. Verizon claims that my village has EV coverage (11598), but the next village (11557) does not. As far as i knew, we share the same tower.

    The tower we share is an old monopole with both verizon and nextel on it. Here are 2 pictures of the tower. I would assume that the top set is Nextel, and the bottom set is Verizon because they are dual band. Those have been there as long as I remember, and never changed. Wouldnt these pannels be used as 800 AMPS and 800 CDMA. Where is this 1900 CDMA signal coming from. It's the only tower that is close enough for a 1900 signal to be used in my friends house.

    Now for part II:

    Every carrier has their tower in a 2 block area around this verizon site except t-mobile. I count 5 in total. That accounts for Verizon, Nextel, Sprint, and ATT. I can not figure out who the 5th carrier is. Could Verizon have set up a 2nd site right across the street to provide 1900 coverage instead of swaping out some pannels?
     
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    #1 Yankees368, Jul 31, 2005
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2007
  2. Andy

    Andy Diamond Senior Member
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    I've heard conflicting reports as to whether or not Verizon actually has to change panels in order to provide 1900 Mhz coverage.
    In my area, I know that a lot of towers they have swapped one panel out(one of the shark fin ones in your first picture) and replaced it with one 1900 panel. Strange thing is that I cannot find a 1900 signal from towers like this when forcing my phone to *22806, but in a different area, where the tower still has all shark fins, no panels swapped out, I can force my phone to *22806 and actually get a signal, so i have no idea what the right answer is to your question.
    The second picture you posted is most definitely from a dual band carrier, but I don't think Verizon would pay rent twice in the same immediate area instead of swapping out panels. Do you think it would be possible to inspect the buiding and try to find the equipment or ask someone who the panels belong to?
     
  3. Yankees368

    Yankees368 Compulsive Signal Checker
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    Ive looked at all the buildings in the area with antennas on the roof, and all the equiptment is in the basement. You have any idea how i could maybe get in touch with the land lord of these buildings?
     
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  4. Blue_Tech

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    Panels are tuned for specific frequency sets, say... 800-850 MHz. To transmit on 1900 MHz requires a change, no matter what. Specific frequencies require a tuned length radiator to match their wave length. Sure, you can transmit anything you want, through anything you want. But with the limited power available in cellular, efficiency is the name of the game.

    As for identifying carriers by the types of antenna you see... thats pretty much not possible. For instance, our company uses over 20 different panel designs depending on desired coverage pattern, power handling characteristics, noise rejection requirments... so on, so forth. We use panels that are common to many carriers and a few that are not, but its almost impossible to distinguish some of the varieties apart, there are literally thousands of panel designs out there.

    As for your phantom 1900 signal, their may be a stealth rig somewhere. Disguised as a flag pole, large rock, tree, or panels behind a vinyl billboard ad (these are especially popular here).

    Check out:

    Tessco Wireless Supply
    Scroll down a bit and you'll find the panels.
     
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  5. Yankees368

    Yankees368 Compulsive Signal Checker
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    I am almost positive that there is not a stealth site anywhere close enough to recieve that signal. The site I put up is the closest site, and only site reachable in that area.
     
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  6. Andy

    Andy Diamond Senior Member
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    After thinking about this a little more I don't think that Verizon would put up a site across the street from an existing site, pay rent twice, etc. to provide EVDO coverage. And if you look at the second cellsite, it's a dual band cellsite. Why would VZW want to have 800 Mhz coming from two sites that are just across the street from each other. I just don't think that the second site is VZW, unless they turned off the first site and are only providing coverage from the second site now. Go field testing around both towers, if you are right by the first tower, see what the PN offset is, and see if it changes if you go by the tower in picture two...then we'll know for sure.
     
  7. Yankees368

    Yankees368 Compulsive Signal Checker
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    They did not shut off the first site (on the monopole) because I get a very strong analog signal around it. I would love to go testing around the site, but I myself do not have a Verzion phone.
     
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  8. jones

    jones Silver Senior Member
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    As for identifying carriers by the types of antenna you see... thats pretty much not possible.

    Best explanation
    that makes sense
    i've seen.

    After all those POSTS about Panels
    some are still missing the POINT,
    AND ARE STILL not GETTING IT
    or simply refuse to believe.
    PANELS has nothing to do with CDMA or GSM.
    It is a question of 850 or 1900 MHz
    Carrier or both.
     
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  9. MeatChicken

    MeatChicken Senior Member
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    The 2nd photo IS a VZW site.
    This is the EXACT configuration of panels, panel placement & layout that VZW is currently deploying here in NJ/NYC/LI , where you are. There are loads of VZW sites that look exactly like this, or have been chaged over to this, while CING (The only other dual 800/1900 carrier in the area), does Not have any sites that look like this here.
    The 2 outer panels are the 800, & the 2 inner are 1900.
    The other carriers in the area use different looking panels & don't lay them out exactly this way. That's a VZW site.

    AS Far as the MonoPole Photo- The Top looks like 1900 panels but could be either.
    I would guess VZW is Not on that pole, & 2 other carriers are.
    Here in NNJ, VZW Did just what you said, Put an additional site on a building "line of Site" a few thousand feet away from an existing site, so anything is possible...
     
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  10. Yankees368

    Yankees368 Compulsive Signal Checker
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    But it just dosent make sense. They already are up on a tower that is no more than a few hundred yards away! Why would they pay twice and put sites so close together. Also, the 2 outer panels were just recently added, about a month or 2 ago.
     
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  11. MeatChicken

    MeatChicken Senior Member
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    If you know how to access your fone's test screens, go to the building site & find out each sectors P/N #, by walking or driving around the building. (The P/N will be +/- 168 from one adjacent on the same site, so a site , for example, can have p/n #'s of 36, 204 & 372 , or 76, 244 & 412, ect, ).
    Then go over to that monopole & see if you are indeed getting three (different from the other site), 168-spaced P/n's from it. If not VZW either isn't on that pole, or has shut off their site there in favor of the new one.
    Also you should be getting approx. -29 to -49 dB signal strength readings when that close to a cell site. If you are getting higher readings, such as -70 or more, you are probably receiving a sector from somewhere else, & the pole you are right under is not a VZW site.
     
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  12. MeatChicken

    MeatChicken Senior Member
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    PS.... I just realized I could click on your thumbnail & make it larger! :loony:

    The Bottom set is Nextel. Those are not "Dual band" but rather the standard 4 "Double Sharkfin" 850Mhz type panels, with Rf screens behind them.
    This is Very common config for Nextel in this area.
    The top seem to be 3 either 800 or 1900.
    I doubt either of these is VZW.
     
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  13. Yankees368

    Yankees368 Compulsive Signal Checker
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    I know that Verizon is on this pole. I check at the base.
     
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  14. Andy

    Andy Diamond Senior Member
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    The lower panels on the first picture look exactly like Verizon sites around here. Their older ones anyways. Newer ones have one thick panel per sector, but all older sites have those shark fins. I have never seen Nextel configurations like this.
    Additionally, if you checked the base of the site, then it has to be VZW.
    Maybe they need the capacity??? Is that sector on the building pointing towards a direction the other sectors on the tower aren't? Is that site on the house just one sector or does it have three?
     
  15. Andy

    Andy Diamond Senior Member
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    AGreed- field testing would be the smartest thing. Yankees, you should try to jack your friend's phone :)
     
  16. Yankees368

    Yankees368 Compulsive Signal Checker
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    Those shark fin panels have to be Verizon. I get a very strong Verizon analog signal there. As for your other question, the other site is only pointing in 3 directions, on 3 corners of the building.
     
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  17. Andy

    Andy Diamond Senior Member
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    So here's the thing:
    You know for sure that the tower site is Verizon.
    MeatChicken says that the second building picture is VZW too. Do you think they could have added that site for added capacity and to add 1900? Verizon might not be broadcasting PCS from that first picture, because here in my area they are exchanging one shark fin panel per sector for a 1900 panel in order to provide PCS coverage, so maybe they just needed the capacity for an additonal site in the area and figured they'd make that a dual band site and leave the other site at 800 CDMA/AMPS. But I still don't understand why VZW would want to pay rent twice, instead of adding more equipment to the existing tower.
    Still, talking to the land lord of the building or field testing would be the best bets.
     
  18. Yankees368

    Yankees368 Compulsive Signal Checker
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    I agree with you on the taking out one shark fin per sector and adding one 1900 panel. That seems like the best option. But this 2nd site was there long before Verizon had EV-DO in mind. Maybe it is for more capacity. Ahh!!! This is blowing my mind. Now where can i get the land lord info from?
     
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  19. Blue_Tech

    Blue_Tech Member
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    Thats highly unlikely... capacity is added to CDMA BTS Sites/Sectors by adding additional T1 circuits. Most Nortel gear can handle up to 9 T1's per sector... that's upwards of 600+ calls per sector!
     
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  20. MeatChicken

    MeatChicken Senior Member
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    Try to get into your field test mode & see the individual sector ID's, if the pole is that close to the building the signal strength alone doesn't say much ....
    ANDY: In our system (Yankee & Mine), VZW is removing the 2 inner 800 Sharkfins for 2 1900's, unlike other areas where they are only adding 1 1900, such as yours. In about 90% of the upgrades they also change the 2 outer "sharkfin" 800's to the Panel 800 outer style shown in his 2nd photo, & all new VZW sites here look Exactly like his 2nd foto.
    Nextel in this area commonly uses 4 sharfins w/ screens behind them. Screens on VZW sites are around, but much more rare & only in very VZW Panel congested places.
    I would almost be willing to bet , regardless of the pole owner tag at the bottom, that VZW isn't there. (which I admit is odd given the tag at the bottom).
    If those lower panels are indeed VZW, they will shortly have their 2 inners changed over ( should have been done already) & perhaps the building panels are facing opposite directions from those on the pole for more coverage areas..
    Get into that field test mode .. I'm really curious!! :)
     
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  21. Andy

    Andy Diamond Senior Member
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    So you are saying that the capcity of a CDMA cellsite depends only on T1 circuits?? What is the average number of calls a CDMA cellsite sector can handle?
    A question I have: Why do CDMA carriers often use big shark fin type antennas, and other times only one panel per sector? I was told that one panel can hold just as much capacity as, say 4 shark fin type panels, so is this just that newer sites only have one panel or what's the deal??Thanks for the info.
     
  22. MeatChicken

    MeatChicken Senior Member
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    "Generally" Having more than one panel per sector per band, is a lower cost than the electronics nessessary to duplex/multiplex multiple signals into 1 antenna, especially when very many carrier freqs are in use.
    Also, some would say there is an eventual slight degradation in performance/range when too many signals are multiplexed into 1 antenna ...
     
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  23. Andy

    Andy Diamond Senior Member
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    Great info, thanks MeatChicken!
    Newer Verizon sites in my area only have one thick panel per sector, instead of shark fins, so I just figured that shark fins are old and outdated.
    I just got home a few minutes ago and saw Cache Valley Electric crews changing out panels at another Verizon site here in the area, they were working on getting the first shark fin off when I drove by. I was gonna stop and talk to them but both were up on the tower. I took a few pictures though while driving by.
     
  24. Yankees368

    Yankees368 Compulsive Signal Checker
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    Ok, when I get some free time today, I am going to do some work on this. If i have access again to the botom of that monopole, I am going to double check who is on it. Since i dont have a Verizon phone right now, can i get all the site info out of Analog? Will that work?
     
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  25. MeatChicken

    MeatChicken Senior Member
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    No.
    New sites over the past few years don't include analog here, so an analog only phone won't "see" the new building site's sectors. Analog channels are limited to the older existing sites that already had it.
     
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  26. jones

    jones Silver Senior Member
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    I've seen great explainations here on this thread.


    To increase the Capacity of a Cell Site (CDMA or GSM)
    First you have to Increase its Transmit/Receive Spectrum.
    Then you will need additional T1 circuits.
    Why?
    Because a T1 circuit can only handle so much voice Channels,
    or data.


    Just like a Bucket(T1) can hold only so much Water.
    You need more water?
    Get another bucket.
     
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  27. Yankees368

    Yankees368 Compulsive Signal Checker
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    Duh, I knew that.... :loony:

    Anyway, I went back to check out the monopole today and confirmed that it contains both Nextel and vzw. Now here is something to consider. I noticed that on one of the sectors (not visible in the picture) there are only 3 shark fins, and what looks to be an uplink rectangle panel. Is this a common use by either vzw or nextel?
     
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  28. Blue_Tech

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    Yeah, I was pretty brief, but MeatChicken has got the meat of it.

    Every time a new T1 is added, we refer to it as adding a carrier. "Adding a carrier" requires us to add a new freq or channel if you will, as well as an additonal T1. RF engineering principles allow us to be pretty flexible as to how we want to implement that carrier.

    The following scenarios all get played out:

    Add the carrier to an existing sector or sectors, or omni-directional antenna.

    Add the carrier on its own dedicated sectors (adding sectors).

    Add the carrier in on an omni for close proximity coverage, but still have another carrier riding on sectored panels.

    Nortel specs call for up to 9 carrier per sector. So thats 9 channels, and 9 T1's piped to each sector. In theory, CDMA 1X technically allows for 44,000 callse per channel, but we are limited by T1 bandwidth.

    Most all panels have a bandwidth rating, dictating how many channels, and therfore traffic we can load on those panels.
     
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  29. Yankees368

    Yankees368 Compulsive Signal Checker
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    I managed to get a picture from the site with the remaining carrier on it. I believe that it is ATT. This picture is from 5 years ago when it only contains the shark fins. Would the addition of the newer panels indicate that it is infact ATT?

    Newer picture: Here
     

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  30. MeatChicken

    MeatChicken Senior Member
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    Yes, this "newer Picture" you show is typical of the ATT (Cing) sites around here, ATT replaced 1 middle 800 panel with a 1900 as shown, as opposed to VZW here, they replaced 2 inner 800's w/ 2 1900s, as in your original 2nd photo.

    Blue Tech, I've never heard of that 44,000 calls "per channel" !!!
    If you mean per 1.25Mhz "carrier Freq" channel, that is theoretically limited to the amount of Walsh codes possible to create voice channels, I forget the exact 1x #, but it is close to about 384 per carrier channel I believe, I think the older non 1x "d" system was 128 per carrier.
    Even a cell that has 10 carrier freqs deployed would not reach 44,000 w/all three sectors combined!!
     
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