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VZW 1900Mhz Reports & Info....

Discussion in 'Northeastern US Wireless Forum' started by MeatChicken, Nov 6, 2004.

  1. MeatChicken

    MeatChicken Senior Member
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    Started a new thread, the others were getting long... :)
    I was able to take a trip down the NJ Tpk yesterday, from Rt 80 down to Exit 9.
    Kept my phone on the test screens & did * 22807's to see where I could get a voice channel.
    Rt 80 south to almost the Toll plaza was dead, Then Strong PCS signals were available from about the Toll, down to Newark (Liberty) Airport.
    South of Newark airport, to Exit 9, the PCS voice system was gone , 800Mhz was strong of course the whole trip.
    Still getting the Roam indicator on my phone when on the PCS system (22), so I still assume a PRL update will be comming to correct this.
    Most areas of Bergen County are still not PCS live, I have occasionaly gotten a weak -100 - -109 signal in select spots, obviously not generated by the local cell stes.......
     
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  2. Andy

    Andy Diamond Senior Member
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    MeatChicken, thanks for the continuing reports; were you able to connect voice calls using the PCS Channels or would it still only give you a recording???
     
  3. MeatChicken

    MeatChicken Senior Member
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    I have no way of forceing my phone to PCs to make a "normal call", so I can only check by doing *22807, although I have a feeling if you had a phone that could "stick" on the VZW PCS system, it would allow a call.
     
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  4. Andy

    Andy Diamond Senior Member
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    Ah- the Nokias don't do that??? I didn't know that, sorry! ;)
     
  5. MeatChicken

    MeatChicken Senior Member
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    OK.. Here's some "real" news/update on the VZW 1900Mhz coverage:

    1) Recap....; As mentioned I have been testing areas for the new 1900Mhz voice coverage by dialing *22807 send, & in the areas where the voice capability isn't online at all yet, you get a "system access failed" banner (on my Nokia).
    In areas where the cell(s) have some sort of PCS voice ablilty, you connect on a PCS channel, same sys ID 22, & hear "your call can't be completed as dialed" & then get bumped back down to 800.
    I was also getting a Roam Triangle while doing this, which I Thought would be corrected in a future PRL update.....

    2) Yesterday, I noticed that some new cells were PCS online, that weren't the day before, including the 2 in Lodi, (Exit 63 Monopole off Rt 80, & the condo Building corner of S.Main & Hunter Streets), same Roam triangle & recording.
    ** Today, I am in the same area, & have noticed that my phone is now for the first time Idling on PCS channel 825, & the regular calls I am making are going thru on the 1900Mhz system, all Without any roam triangle. When I hang up it continues to idle on 1900Mhz 825. I am aware that a few miles up the road in Paramus, 1900 voice is not yet on line, so I am hoping to be able to make a call later tonight as I travel, & see how/if the cross-band handoff goes.......
     
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    #5 MeatChicken, Nov 18, 2004
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2004
  6. EdwardP

    EdwardP Bronze Senior Member
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    Just tried this on my Nokia here, received the same message.
     
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  7. Andy

    Andy Diamond Senior Member
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    Edward, is VZW building out 1900 in your area as well???

    MeatChicken, very interesting...So your phone is actually idling and using the 1900 channels only now, I wonder when/how it would react if 1900 coverage ends. Would be nice to hear your report after your drive tonight.
    ~andy
     
  8. EdwardP

    EdwardP Bronze Senior Member
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    I don't know if thet are building out 1900 in Boston.

    My Verizon prepay service expires on Dec. 1 anyway, so I thought I would try it to see what would happen. Nothing here.
     
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  9. Andy

    Andy Diamond Senior Member
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    Ah, I get it, you tried it in Boston and got the System Access Failed message, correct??? Now I got it, SORRY! :)
     
  10. MeatChicken

    MeatChicken Senior Member
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    I Drove north on the GSP, & a little north of about RT4, the phone reverted to 800Mhz. I wasn't in a call, so this was all looking at the idle screen, I have no report on how the hard hadoff would have gone.
    Today I am back in the same exact area, & my phone so far today is back to 800-only operation. A *22807 gives the expected roam triangle & recording, before bumping me back down to 800, & re-powering the phone & making calls havre not yet made the phone get back to PCS. I guess the system "decides who & when to put on 1900, & when it does there is no roam triangle.
    Coincedentally, I saw my VZW contact last night, (haven't seen him in a while), & he said that they are currently working every day to bring new cells & sections on line w/1900 voice. He mentioned that VZW & Lucent Tech "system optimization" engineers were doing drive 1900 tests in this area just a couple of days ago.
    He also mentioned that VZW has plans to complete quite a few new additional cell sites in Sussex county during 2005.....
     
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  11. Andy

    Andy Diamond Senior Member
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    Great information, keep it coming! Even though I'm so far away this is quite interesting ;)
     
  12. Rasputin

    Rasputin Bronze Senior Member
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    Thanks for the update!!
     
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  13. MeatChicken

    MeatChicken Senior Member
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    Another thing about VZW's 1900Mhz NY/NJ system, it seems that while capable of "hard handoff" between 800/1900 bands, intra-band soft handoff is preferable in CDMA for various reasons, & these 2 Freq systems will tend to operate for the most part "seperate", calls that originate on 1900 will tend to soft handoff & stay at 1900, unless there is a "good" reason for a hard handoff (i.e... the end of PCS coverage area, call will be handed down to 800). The system may decide to move idle users around both bands, but once a call originates in a given band, that call will "usually" tend to stay on the band it originated on, from start to finish, to take advantage of soft handoff/multi cell cabability when at all possible....
    Yesterday was another day my phone stayed on 1900 until I left the PCS area, today, I'm back on 800 & can't get the phone to idle to 1900, it seems that the system decides who/when/where to put on each band....
     
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  14. Andy

    Andy Diamond Senior Member
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    ...again very interesting!
    MeatChicken, could you explain the following a little more:

    The system may decide to move idle users around both bands, but once a call originates in a given band, that call will "usually" tend to stay on the band it originated on, from start to finish, to take advantage of soft handoff/multi cell cabability when at all possible....

    What exactly do you mean with soft handoff/multi cell cabability??? Sorry.
    Andy
     
  15. MeatChicken

    MeatChicken Senior Member
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    In short, CDMA is the only current cellular Technology that allows soft handoffs, a CDMA handset can be actively using & in contact with up to 6 cell sectors at 1 time, using &/or combining the signals for the best call quality, & the transmission is therefore almost never "cut & re-established" for a fraction of a second,(hard handoff), when a call moves from cell sector to cell sector, as it is in analog & GSM type systems, which are active with 1 sector at a time.
    Go here, & look at all 104 Video Q & A's for very detailed CDMA info...
    http://www.cdmaonline.com/members/dl/DLcdma02.htm
     
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  16. Andy

    Andy Diamond Senior Member
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    Oh, now I get what you're saying, thanks!
    BTW, I'm watching some of the things of your link, thanks for that as well.
    ~Andy
     
  17. MeatChicken

    MeatChicken Senior Member
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    .. I think I am seeing a "pattern" in the NY/NJ VZW 1900Mhz access.
    It seems that my phone is "allowed" to idle on & use the 1900Mhz VZW system every 5 days ( 5th day).
    On other days, calls initiated in the area to *22807 will give the roam triangle & can't complete recording, & then send the phone back down to idle & use 800.
    On the 5th day, the phone is sent to idle on PCS 1900Mhz upon completion of the call instead of 800, & all calls are then on the PCS channels.
    Today I'm on 1900, I've even just shut off the phone & turned it back on, & it stayed on 1900Mhz.
    My "guess" is that for now, a different group of users is moved to, or allowed on 1900 each day, based on their MIN or ESN, in 5 day cycles.
    I will need a few more sets of 5 days, to see if this holds true, for my phone at least.
     
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  18. Andy

    Andy Diamond Senior Member
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    Haha...wouldn't that be wierd doing it that way?? But I guess whatever works. BUT, if you loose the 1900 signal when going into a building, or when the 1900 channels get overloaded(unlikely), will the phone still idle on 1900 just because it's your 'turn' or will it bump you down to 800??
     
  19. ZaphodB

    ZaphodB Signal Go Down De Hole...
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    *cough*

    Every five days. Wouldn't that make this...

    ...a Time-Division Multiple Access (TDMA) network?

    *duck*
     
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  20. MeatChicken

    MeatChicken Senior Member
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    Yes, it of course it can still bump people across based on need.
    I work in the 800/1900 area, but live about 8 miles away, where they haven't yet installed the 1900 voice in the cells.
    I noticed last night driving home that the phone moved over to idle on the "normal" 800 channel, when I was about half strength on the last 1900 sector, Before it "lost" the PCS signal. Perhaps the system "knows" that you are at the last sector of the PCS system & signal is getting weaker, with no other 1900 channel in sight, so it moved the phone to 800 before losing service.
    If they end up "doing it" this way ("Xth" day), it is actually not a bad idea.
    Every day they would instantly gain 20 or more % of addnl capacity on 800 by moving a block of users to 1900, Still have plenty more addnl capacity at 1900, all while avoiding the occasional customer with a "quirk" complaint if the same users were on 1900 channels for days in a row -- there'll always be the user complaining of choppy audio in a hard handoff area, or reception quirks, or whatever, that would not become a daily pattern otherwise....
    Today I'm back here, & sure enough I can't get the system to idle me on 1900...
    .. If they are on a 5th day rotation, they may also be putting , say, 30% of users on 1900 Monday, 10% Sunday.. ect .. based on daily usage...
     
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  21. bobolito

    bobolito Diamond Senior Member
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    Meatchicken, I was looking for an answer to Andy's question, but I didn't see it in your post so let me pick your brains again ;)... What about if you are in an area that has 800/1900 and it is your day to be forced to use 1900: What happens if you go into a building where you normally have 800 reception but 1900 is blocked by the building and it is your turn to be forced to 1900? In that case 1900 would be non-existant but 800 will probably be weak but usable. Will you be put on 800 even though you are supposed to use 1900 that day? Have you tested this yet?
     
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  22. MeatChicken

    MeatChicken Senior Member
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    Yes, I have.
    Your phone can Always lock onto a VZW pilot signal, regardless of band, however it will "look for" what the system says is your "home channel" first. So if you go into the building you mention & lose 1900, your phone will idle on 800.
    Think of it not as 800 is being "blocked" , but rather 1900 is being "opened" on that day. The system will default & prefer to keep you on a given freq, but it will do whatever is nessessary.
    I also actually had a reverse situation on on non-5th (800) day, where I lost 800, re-established on 1900!
    You may be familiar with the KFC/mini mall on the corner of Forest & Midland Ave's in Paramus. Inside it is a bad signal situation, (-99 to -109dB inside most or all carriers) & I would lose svc frequently indoors.
    On that day last week, the phone was in my pocket & must have lost the 800 channel. When I took it out of my pocket outside, I found it idled on 1900.
    (Must have lost 800, took a few steps & it found & syncd the 1900 channel before re-gaining 800). So on an 800 "Day", it still allowed access to the 1900 VZW system to keep me in service.
    Neither band is locked out from anyone on any day, but in "normal use" it will tend to keep you on the preferred channel of the day, if it can.

    (BTW.. The building on the corner of Forest & RT 4 is one of the only cells in Paramus w/1900 Voice, go North/West into Paramus & you will be bumped down to 800).....

    With CDMA, each phone is given a "Home" pilot/idle channel that almost Never changes, based on the MIN or ESN. (Unless the freq is full, in which case the system will move you as nessessary.) My 800 "home" idle is 384 (F1), my wife's is 425 (F2). My 1900 seems to be 825.
    I believe these correspond to the actual 1.25 Mhz CDMA "band" chunk, so my wife is on a different freq then my phone is. (.. all 384's are on the same freq, all 425's .. ect) Going from 384 to 425, during a call would be a hard-handoff in CDMA as well, going from 384 to 384 cell to cell is the soft handoffs on the same freq. Each Idle freq is like it's own seperate mini-system, 384's tend to stay there, 425's hardly ever move off that.... About twice a year I see my 384 go to 425 for a brief while (384 must be "full"), & it would soon be put back on 384....
     
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  23. bobolito

    bobolito Diamond Senior Member
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    Pretty cool explanation....thanks! :D
     
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  24. Andy

    Andy Diamond Senior Member
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    Yeah, thanks for that explanation...very interesting! This has got me thinking: VZW is taking over the remaining Qwest sites in a lot of areas, including my home town. Now my guess would be that they'd use those old Qwest sites for additional 1900 reception/capacity. A building I'm in often has an old Qwest site on the rooftop, so there's full service throughout the building. All other 1900 carriers(including Sprint, CricKet) are very weak or dead inside, VZW is weak, but usable. Now if they do what they are doing in your area here as well, I'd only get full service from that Qwest site on top of the building on the-say 5th day...that wouldn't be good. Have you ever tried forcing your phone to PCS only on a 800 day? Maybe I could do that while in the building???
     
  25. MeatChicken

    MeatChicken Senior Member
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    It depends, in this area they overlayed their existing 800 sites with the PCS spectrum.
    They may not want to pay the rent of that quest site if they don't have to, especially if they feel their existing cell location(s) are adequate for the area, & move or remove the equipment, or , they may decide to keep it, make it a full blown site & add both 800/1900 to it. Some areas may end up, at least in the short term, with EV-DO data only on 1900.
     
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  26. Andy

    Andy Diamond Senior Member
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    You have a point, Meatchicken. Some Qwest sites are just a hundred feet from existing VZW sites, but a lot of them are in areas where VZW service is good, but not full service, especially inside, like that buiding I was talking about.
     
  27. jones

    jones Silver Senior Member
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    I did'nt find any Quest Sites in the Northeast?
     
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  28. agentHibby

    agentHibby Iowa Cellular Guru
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    After very long search I did not find any Qwest sites in the South either. :lol: :rasp:

    Qwest sites are in Washington, Oregon, New Mexico, Arizona, Utah, Colorado, Idaho, Nebraska, Minnesota, few sites in Iowa, North and South Dakota, Wyoming, (Montana?)
     
  29. Jrapp

    Jrapp Senior Member
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    I'm in the middle of NYC. So what is the significance of James Earl Jones saying "Welcome to Verizon Wiresless" and then the "your call cannot be completed as dialed" message every time I dial *22807.
     
  30. Andy

    Andy Diamond Senior Member
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    Jrapp:I think the significance is that the 1900 voice channels in your area are up and running, but not quite ready to be used??? That would be my guess.
     

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