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Verizon Turning On 1900Mhz in NNJ/NYC!

Discussion in 'Northeastern US Wireless Forum' started by MeatChicken, Jun 4, 2004.

  1. adamj023

    adamj023 Member

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    Does this require PRL update as 1900 is not included for VZ wireless in NYC metro PRL yet? People reported they got 1900 service, but if the PRL for those areas dont have 1900 for their SID how does it know to switch?

    Does anyone know how long a carrier has to activate newly acquired spectrum once they acquire it? It seems like the Northcoast PCS 1900 spectrum in NYC Metro was kept dormant for the longest time and it seems like newly acquired spectrum is not giving the same build requirements/usage requirements as spectrum purchased at auction? Verizon wireless in some spots has been oversold for awhile especially in off peak hours and only time will tell if the 1900 spectrum will fill that gap and fix the problems.
     
  2. MeatChicken

    MeatChicken Senior Member
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    The will apparently use the same system ID (22), & phones will be directed & handed off between bands, at least initially, by signals sent to the handset by the pilot channel, so there won't be any initial need for a PRL update to access the extra channels.
    VZW is rolling out EV-DO data 1st on 1900, then voice. Both are still sceduled to be completed between now & December in various parts of the system, & some people are already reporting PCS/EV-Do in select areas.
     
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  3. adamj023

    adamj023 Member

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    Do you know anything about the spectrum issue?

    I plan on confronting the FCC with this exact issue because it appears to be anticompetitive where a carrier with lots of power can buy up spectrum and keep it dormant to prevent other carriers from using such spectrum to roll out competing services.
     
  4. adamj023

    adamj023 Member

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    Enclosed is the letter I just wrote to the FCC, however Im not sure if I sent it to the right email address. Depending on what the FCC says, I may persue the issue further and take it to the political level including contacting Senator McCain, an ally on the Commerce committee for fair competition.

    I would like to know what the FCC policy is regarding acquired spectrum and roll out requirements.

    It appears as though Verizon Wireless purchased spectrum from Northcoast PCS and let it dormant since its acquisition.

    Jan 6, 2003 was the date in which Verizon announced the intent to acquire the Northcoast PCS spectrum. Now even assuming it took 6 months for the spectrum to come under their own control, Verizon had access to spectrum which was kept from other carriers and did not even begin to start using the spectrum till approx August, 2004 when it appears it is starting to add such spectrum online as of present.

    My question to the FCC is that at first glance it appears that the policy for build out appears to be different for spectrum purchased at auction vs spectrum acquired via other competitiors.

    I would like clarification as to this issue as to what FCC policies are since it appears that such tactics could be used for anticompetitive behaviors to keep other carriers from rolling out competing services and they will only roll out when pressed or competitive nature requires them to do such.
     
  5. MeatChicken

    MeatChicken Senior Member
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    I believe the FCC has a time period from which a carrier can risk losing their spectrum if they don't use it.
    In VZW's case, within about 1 year of aquiring it, they started to install & upgrade their system to use these channels.
    They have been doing this not since August, but from about the Jan-March period of this year.
    I don't think any carrier or the FCC would think VZW was "sitting" on spectrum in this particular case, & it is reasonable to assume that it may take at least 18-24 months for a carrier to aquire the nessessary equipment & upgrades to fully utilize a block of spectrum....
    BTW, VZW just bought 10Mhz of Nexwave PCS spectrum for NY/NJ back in July, & no doubt it will be up & running along with the northcoast channels within months....
     
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  6. adamj023

    adamj023 Member

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    Verizon wireless announced its intent in jan 2003. The change of spectrum acquired from the FCC is 05/23/2003 according to the FCC database. It is now 09/12/2004 and the spectrum in NYC metro has still not been added in most areas.

    The spectrum for NextWave has yet to be transferred fully yet but is in process of being transferred fully as per FCC database so that one, you would not expect to be put online yet.

    http://wireless2.fcc.gov/UlsApp/UlsSearch/license.jsp?licKey=10433 is the spectrum Im questioning. Buildout deadline is still listed as Buildout Deadlines
    1st 06/27/2002. Now of couse Verizon should be allowed to extend the date, but I think 12 mths would have been resonable and that would mean that as of 05/2004, all spectrum should have been activated IMHO. We shall see what the FCC responce is. But the fact remains that corporations like Verizon could indeed hoard spectrum to prevent competition and not use it but rather continue to oversell phone services. And this should be looked into to see if it justifies such or not if there were indeed legitimate technical reasons or whatnot.
     
  7. MeatChicken

    MeatChicken Senior Member
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    I'm not aware of the FCC in this case thinking VZW needs any "response" or has done anything wrong.... , are you aware of the FCC issuing any citations to VZW on this matter??
    From talking to a VZW employee involved on this project, I know they have been working "Full steam" to get the PCS spectrum online.
    Remember, The NY/NJ ststem may argueably be the largest in the nation, & VZW has had to add or change antennas at almost every existing tower all across NYC, LI, NNJ & those upstate counties in the system.(except those that were built in the last 18 months or so), This alone is a massive undertaking, & add to that the time it would take the local telco's to add T-1's & landline capabilities at each cell, & then the VZW engineers to integrate all the equipment at each cell. They then have to synconize & test the system before it can go "live" (The point they are at now in the majority of areas).
    The Nexwave spectrum should go online much faster, once all nessessary approvals are finished, since adding those channels won't require any additional equipment at each cell, nor crews to climb the towers & change antennas.
    I don't think that AT&T, for example, had their entire PCS GSM system up & running any faster in NY/NJ.
    I do understand your concern "in general" about carriers "sitting" on spectrum to "hoard" it & prevent competitors from getting it, but it seems clear that is not what is happening here, & has nothing to do with VZW's current buildout of 1900Mhz here.
     
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  8. bobolito

    bobolito Diamond Senior Member
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    I've noticed Verizon sites getting new panels lately in several locations. It's pretty much what AT&T has been doing since last year.
     
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  9. adamj023

    adamj023 Member

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    I dont know if is or isnt which is why I asked the FCC for clarification to prevent such from happening in the future.

    If Verizon has 1900 online then they will be good to go as long as they do not oversell it.

    Actually because of build out requirement, Northcoast had the towers and antennas all built out in its market, maybe not that great coverage but nonetheless the antennas and everything were already in place in many of the needed areas. Obviously Verizon would want to make sure service would be up to their stricter standards and Im assuming that the takeover included those towers in addition to the spectrum.

    Whether or not the delay was intentional and anticompetitive behavior is another story and needs to be looked into. Remember, Verizon is a corporation that is profitable and investors love it, but competitive pressures and increasing profit come at the detriment to users.

    A lawsuit filed against Verizon due to overselling DSL service comes to mind in which Verizon users like myself at the time would often try to login and would not be able to because it would be busy. So there is a profit incentive for them to not use the capacity and to continue overselling the service when there are known capacity issues and there is precedent for this. Im not saying yet that this is what was done which is why Im asking the FCC for clarification and I believe its an issue we ought to worry about because consolidation is coming as we see with AT&T and Cingular. Its an industry wide issue and not an issue specific to Verizon.
     
  10. adamj023

    adamj023 Member

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    I can confirm 1900 now on Verizon when forcing phone to *22804 which is the former Northcoast spectrum in NYC Metro on channel 975.

    However, it immediately handed me over to 800 spectrum. I retried it after that and now it is now showing up. Seems like intermittent signal which sometimes shows up on 1900 here. I guess its being worked on as we speak. Unfortunately signal strength for 1900 appears to be weaker but that could be due to other factors since its not officially online yet. But since we will have both 800 and 1900 spectrum, some users will have the full 1900 coverage so hopefully it all works out.

    I just tried my phone again with *22804 and nothing shows up and I did this 3 more times. Oh well. Seems like every so often Ill try and it will show up while most of the time it does not.

    Will check again next week to see if its fully online.
     
  11. GoodmanR

    GoodmanR Silver Senior Member
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    The reason signal strength is weaker is because Verizon is not fully overlaying their network with 1900. Doing that would require a lot of additional towers (remember, 800 generally provides better coverage than 1900). THe way this is supposed to work is that when you get a strong enough signal, you can use 1900, and when you don't, you still have 800.
     
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  12. MeatChicken

    MeatChicken Senior Member
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    To my knowledge from my VZW contact, there have been no existing Northcoast towers in NNJ, Rockland & most other areas he is familiar with.
    All of the 1900 buildout has involved installing new equipment at VZW sites only. Perhaps there was some sort of "Skeleton" system in Manhattan, but I doubt it was much of anything....

    BOBOLITIO: The Bergen Mall (Rt 4 @ Forest Ave) VZW site, atop the brick office building, just got their panels changed about 10 days ago. They added 2 1900-only, & changed the 2 remaining "Shark Fins" 800 panels to the newer solid rectangle type. At my suggestion thru my VZW contact, I was able to get them to angle the north side panels more into Forest ave, they were pointing more diagonally twords "Kohls".......
     
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  13. adamj023

    adamj023 Member

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    MeatChicken: In Queens right now there does appear to be 1900 signal, however I take it, it has not yet been activated? Also signal is intermittent meaning if I try *22804 in NYC Metro dozens of times, one time it will find it while most it will not and if it does I get handed off to the 800mhz spectrum.

    Any idea when this will go into actual use?
     
  14. MeatChicken

    MeatChicken Senior Member
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    I am told that most areas should be up & running between this month, to about 60-90 days out. In some areas EV-DO data will go live a little before voice capability at 1900.
    You are probably at the fringe area of a site that has an active 1900 pilot signal. I also encountered 1900 pilot channels out in Nassau county, but my phone was quickly bounced back down to 800Mhz.
    Also keep in mind that it is quite possible that even after all the cell sites go live w/voice capability, your phone will still be "forced to 800" by the system.
    It is very possible that VZW may use the 1900 voice for capacity overflow only, meaning that after a certian cell site reaches some "pre-determined" traffic level, only then will it start to allow / move / handoff calls & idle handsets to 1900Mhz channels. - This is speculation at this point, but a very real possibilty.
    It is also my understanding that the CDMA channel your phone usually idles on (384, 425, 466, ect), is determined by an algorythm based in part on your MIN #. If this is the case, & they don't change anything, your phone will always be "bounced" to your primary Idle/Pilot channel, (mine is 384), unless told otherwise by the system. ( You may notice if you watch your test screens that the pilot/idle channel, such as 384 or 425, usually stays the same no matter how many cells you travel across).
    For those into EV-DO, I am told that PCS channel 875 in this system will be an EV-DO "Only" channel. 800Mhz Cell channels 507 & 548 are currently NON-1x "only" CDMA channels. (My wife's 5185 non-1x phone's idle channel is indeed 548)......
     
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  15. adamj023

    adamj023 Member

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    It is very possible that VZW may use the 1900 voice for capacity overflow only, meaning that after a certian cell site reaches some "pre-determined" traffic level, only then will it start to allow / move / handoff calls & idle handsets to 1900Mhz channels. - This is speculation at this point, but a very real possibilty.

    I would agree with this. I would much rather be on 800mhz spectrum since it penetrates better. The problem with 800 isnt the frequency its the lack of spectrum at times. Whatever Verizon decides on this is 100% fine by me.

    Heres a question actually regarding the FL market tho. Ill post this on the SE forum but its kind of related to 800/1900 issue. In FL, ATT & Cingular both own 800 mhz spectrum. Shouldnt they be forced to divest of one block of 800mhz spectrum so that Verizon could buy it out and have 800mhz for CDMA in Florida?

    I think thats only fair.
     
  16. MeatChicken

    MeatChicken Senior Member
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    I would guess that in same markets where AT&T & Cingular are the two 800 carriers, they will have to divest one.
    Bobolito may know more about that.
     
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  17. Jerseyphoneguy

    Jerseyphoneguy Junior Member
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    What will happen in areas such as Central and Southern NJ where Cingular owns the 850 and ATT has the 1900? Will they keep both of them active to maintain enough spectrum? I would hope that if they only keep one they would keep the 850.
     
  18. adamj023

    adamj023 Member

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    If Cingular owns the 800 block and ATT owns 1900 block then there is no issue. Verizon in the NYC market for example owns 2 Blocks of 1900 and one block of 800.

    The FCC lifted the spectrum caps. Owning 800 and 1900 in a given market is not an issue, its better for consumers when both blocks of spectrum are owned by one company. There are multiple blocks of 1900 and only 2 of 800 so best senario for customers is when a carrier owns both 800 and 1900. In NYC metro it is ATT/Cingular and Verizon and not surprisingly those carriers both have the best coverage.

    The problem arises in my own mind when 2 blocks of cellular non pcs spectrum are owned by one company. What the FCC may do with the ATT and Cingular merger is unclear. The spectrum caps seem to at first glance allow for such a merger as long as its not in rural areas and wont require divestiture. But I would argue that such is needed due to the inherent properties between the 2 bands and that 1900 and 800 combination is the best approach. (Read my post in the southern wireless provider forum on this issue)

    Im sure Verizon would love to get the 800 spectrum in South East Florida so hopefully their attorneys are working on their argument.

    Its also possible I guess for Cingular/ATT to want to sell it on their own since maintaining 2 blocks of 800 with 2 sets of antennas and towers is costly, however they also can use it as a hedge to keep Verizon wireless out of their turf with 800mhz.
     
  19. agentHibby

    agentHibby Iowa Cellular Guru
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    Verizon probably would not want 800 MHz in Florida, but I am sure in other areas they would want one of the co 800 cellular blocks like in Oklahoma and maybe the market north of Houston metro.
     
  20. jones

    jones Silver Senior Member
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    So this is not a Dual Band Panel. (see my previous Post on this Thread) The 800 Panels always sits next to the 1900 Panel.
     
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  21. adamj023

    adamj023 Member

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    Why wouldnt Verizon want the 800mhz when they know that having such would mean that they lead in terms of service? Verizon would have preferred 800 spectrum in FL but only 1900 was available at the time since both 800 bands were already taken. They successfully built out 1900 and spent alot of money on it with alot of cell sites, but inbuilding penetration suffers and Verizon still needs more available spectrum in Florida since they only have one 1900 block.

    Verizon prefers the 800mhz frequency when they can do it, but took 1900 because it was all there was at the time. Verizon knows the best solution is one block of 800 and an overlay with 1900 to get the best of both.

    Florida is an EXTREMELY profitable market and NY and Florida are tied hand in hand. Verizon's service is top draw in Florida, but it suffers from the penetration issue as well as spectrum shortages just like NY Metro.
     
  22. MeatChicken

    MeatChicken Senior Member
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    Yes, I was originally told that most sites would be getting dual-band panels, but many (including this RT 4 site) Clearly have 2 "Thinner" flat panels in the middle of the row of 4 panels.
    They also seem to remove the remaining 2 "vertical Shark Fin" 800 panels & replace them with the newer solid rectangle type.
    If you drive by fast, all 4 look the same, however if you take a good look, you can see the 2 center panels are much flatter/thinner.
    Next time I see my VZW contact, I will ask him if the thicker panels are dual band, & if not, why they are changing them also......
     
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  23. jones

    jones Silver Senior Member
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    There's a separate cable for 1900 and 800 panels, maybe so it would be easy to redirect signals.
    Thanks for the info.
     
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  24. adamj023

    adamj023 Member

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    Do the thicker panels provide better coverage I assume or does it allow for more users on at one time?

    Seems like VZ is indeed spending bucks on upgrading its system which is good for customers. I bet not all the carriers do this.
     
  25. MeatChicken

    MeatChicken Senior Member
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    The thickness of the panel itself has little to do with coverage or capacity.
    800Mhz panels tend to be thicker, ... the lower in frequency you go, the larger the antenna has to be, to give a specific gain & directional pattern. These Thicker VZW panels are for 800Mhz, & may possibly be dual band as well.
    For Example, a " One Quarter Wavelength ", Zero dB gain Omni Antenna for 800Mhz frequencies would be about 3 inches tall. But, a "One quarter wavelength" Zero dB gain Omni antenna for a common CB radio (27Mhz), would be about 9 feet tall... In between, a 1/4 wave antenna for the standard FM broadcast band (101Mhz), is about 33 inches tall, the common size of an automotive FM external antenna.....
     
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  26. adamj023

    adamj023 Member

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    They also seem to remove the remaining 2 "vertical Shark Fin" 800 panels & replace them with the newer solid rectangle type.

    So basically the antenna upgrades dont mean any difference in coverage, but it justs designed for the transition to 800/1900 coverage?
     
  27. MeatChicken

    MeatChicken Senior Member
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    Yes, you should notice essentially no difference in the coverage of the 800 system, the panel antenna changes are being done to accomodate 1900Mhz.
    Once the 1900 system is live, VZW users in "some" areas of the system may possibly notice a slight increase in coverage, due factors regarding the increase in call capacity, which will allow 800 cells to become less overloaded, & with CDMA systems, a cell with less traffic "may" tend to have better voice quality & less "site breathing" effect, which can translate into a slight increase in a cell's range during peak times...
     
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  28. TKR

    TKR Senior Member
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    Yes, but there is still no way to set the phones to either a 1) Auto - Digital Only, or 2) Digital-Roam Only mode. Digital roaming on Sprint is still a highly unpredictable experience, with analog still weighing in most of the time, when the phone is not searching for Sprint. You can still set Sprint phones to Analog-only mode though. Oh, joy.
     
  29. adamj023

    adamj023 Member

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    Now that I think about it, wouldnt owning the 800mhz signal be a disadvantage in NY Metro if they dont add new towers since the range of the EVDO signal will be very weak if its overlaid with no new towers since the spacing of 800mhz towers was not designed with 1900 in mind?

    I would gather that Verizon would indeed move to 1900 spacing if they wanted to stay competitive for broadband while using the 800 for voice.
     
  30. NYCDru

    NYCDru Sprint Newbie
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    Umm...in NYC VZW IS at 1900Mhz spacing. Reasons why include more concrete and Steel between 0 and 200 feet than anything/were else and probably 1 million cudtomers in Merto NY alone.
     

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