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Tim Cook Refuses To Comply With Fed Court Order

Discussion in 'The Roaming Zone' started by palandri, Feb 17, 2016.

  1. viewfly

    viewfly Mobile RF Advisor
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    @JWA. Well written.


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  2. dmapr

    dmapr Silver Senior Member
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    The really sad part is that if the government wins, then the people who are really concerned with data privacy will still have plenty of options. The iOS and Android alike allow development of apps that have their own security that neither Apple nor Google will be able to bypass. As is usually the case (DRM, anyone?) it will only hurt the common consumer.
     
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  3. palandri

    palandri Former Palm Guy
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    I certainly understand the bigger picture here with privacy. Who wouldn't support someone trying to protect your right to privacy. I just think Apple picked the wrong case to challenge the Feds on this issue. We're talking about protecting the privacy rights of a dead maniac terrorist who went on an insane lone wolf attack to kill Americans.

    I really do appreciate the bigger picture of protecting my privacy rights, but it's just the wrong case to challenge the Feds on.
     
  4. viewfly

    viewfly Mobile RF Advisor
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    I think this is the point of critics. The FBI got their man ( and woman). They are dead. So what is to be gained by access. As you say, lone wolf and dead. No conspiracy, links beyond them. They even have in custody the person who bought the weapons for them.

    The FBI has access to phone calls from the carriers, and most likely he erased all iMessages already.

    So what is to be gained.

    Instead the FBI is making an emotional appeal of this particular case to tear down privacy rights, beyond this one phone. They know it will resonate with people. They have stated that publicly.


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  5. JWA

    JWA New Member

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    The point is that there's no choosing between cases. If they create the tool, it applies across the board to all. The tool cannot be specific to one device, and the court order is to give the tool to the FBI. Additionally, this would create legal precedent. So there is no discerning between cases or reasons, and even if there were it is not Apple's place to decide when to respect a user's right to control their data and when not to. They must remain neutral and default to persisting their user's control of their data.
     
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  6. palandri

    palandri Former Palm Guy
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    JWA you said that beautifully. A+

    I just think there will be an exception made when there's an issue of national security and the protection of the American public. That's why I think it's the wrong case to challenge the Feds on. We'll see what happens.
     
  7. dmapr

    dmapr Silver Senior Member
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    @palandri, I understand completely where you're coming from. Furthermore, if I believed for a second that it could be implemented as an exception I would support it. However my understanding is that the feds are using this case to ask for a carte blanche, so Apple is using the only avenue available to them to challenge the feds on.
     
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  8. viewfly

    viewfly Mobile RF Advisor
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    http://www.macrumors.com/2016/02/19/apple-government-changed-apple-id-password/

    Some new information.

    Apple Says Government Changed Apple ID Password on Shooter's iPhone, Losing Access to Data

    The FBI claims this was done by someone at the San Bernardino Health Department.




    Friday February 19, 2016 3:51 pm PST by Juli Clover

    (The FBI claims this was done by someone at the San Bernardino Health Department.)

    According to Apple, the Apple ID password on the iPhone was changed "less than 24 hours" after being in government hands. Had the password not been altered, Apple believes the backup information the government is asking for could have been accessible to Apple engineers. The FBI has said it has access to weekly iCloud backups leading up to October 19, but not after that date, and it is seeking later information that could be stored on the device.

    The executives said the company had been in regular discussions with the government since early January, and that it proposed four different ways to recover the information the government is interested in without building a back door. One of those methods would have involved connecting the phone to a known wifi network.

    Apple sent engineers to try that method, the executives said, but the experts were unable to do it. It was then that they discovered that the Apple ID passcode associated with the phone had been changed.


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    #38 viewfly, Feb 19, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2016
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  9. dmapr

    dmapr Silver Senior Member
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  10. palandri

    palandri Former Palm Guy
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    @viewfly your macrumors article seems to cause massive confusion, unless I am reading it wrong.

    Tim Cook said Apple wouldn't help the FBI unlocking the phone, but the article clearly states Apple engineers did.

    Secondly Apple says the Apple ID passcode was changed while in the possession of the Government, and the Government says it wasn't.
     
  11. viewfly

    viewfly Mobile RF Advisor
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    There are subtle words being used. Recovering information as in back ups and Apple ID pass codes is different than unlocking the phone ( meaning yielding the unique encryption key on the device.

    Somewhere above I posted that Apple did give the FBI access to all iCloud backups. But the last 1&1/2 months are missing.

    Apple has been helping law enforcement up to a point. It appears that the government, state or Federal screwed up, and now is asking Apple to go beyond a known threshold.


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  12. palandri

    palandri Former Palm Guy
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    @viewfly On Friday the Department Of Justice also went after Apple in court. They are accusing Tim Cook of being complicit in the concealment of information in a Federal criminal investigation. LOL! That's what they nail mobsters on. This isn't going to end well for Tim Cook. Maybe his attorneys could see if Snowden has an extra room in his apartment?
     
  13. viewfly

    viewfly Mobile RF Advisor
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    Maybe a conspiracy theory should be started... Why did the FBI or the SB Health Dept. deliberately change the password thereby destroying access to evidence in a criminal case?

    What were trying to cover up?


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  14. palandri

    palandri Former Palm Guy
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    It's getting pretty crazy. I heard attorneys on the news this morning talking about Apple and the 4th amendment against unreasonable searches and seizures, defining what was reasonable and unreasonable.
     
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  15. viewfly

    viewfly Mobile RF Advisor
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    Yeah. Like the Error 53,I doubt we know all the facts in this case, and both sides are playing to our emotions to get public opinion.
    I just sit on the sideline and give up speculation.


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  16. viewfly

    viewfly Mobile RF Advisor
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    A court rules in favor of Apple in another case.

    I think this is why Apple wants our congress to write legislation ( i.e. take responsibility ) since lower courts can rule either way on this issue.

    http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/03/0...-ruling-in-new-york-iphone-hacking-order.html

    "A federal magistrate judge on Monday denied the United States government’s request that Apple extract data from an iPhone in a drug case in New York, giving the company’s pro-privacy stance a boost as it battles law enforcement officials over opening up the device in other cases.

    The ruling, from Judge James Orenstein in New York’s Eastern District, is the first time that the government’s legal argument for opening up devices like the iPhone has been put to the test. The denial could influence other cases where law enforcement officials are trying to compel Apple to help unlock iPhones, including the standoff between Apple and the F.B.I. over the iPhone used by one of the attackers in a mass shooting in San Bernardino, Calif., last year"


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  17. charlyee

    charlyee Ultimate Insanity
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  18. viewfly

    viewfly Mobile RF Advisor
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    I saw that charlyee ( what? CDG).

    The FBI also admits it made a mistake changing the password.

    WASHINGTON — The head of the F.B.I. acknowledged on Tuesday that his agency lost a chance to capture data from the iPhone used by one of the San Bernardino attackers when it ordered that his password to the online storage service iCloud be reset shortly after the rampage.

    http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/03/0...ace-off-before-house-judiciary-committee.html


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  19. viewfly

    viewfly Mobile RF Advisor
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    Given the FBI screw up, with changing the password,( which many on these and other forums knew would prevent new backups), here is the question:

    Is the iPhone security too strong, or ais the FBI cyber skills knowledge too weak?


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  20. charlyee

    charlyee Ultimate Insanity
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    Good question.

    I am betting on the latter.


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  21. Scrumhalf

    Scrumhalf Bronze Senior Member
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  22. dmapr

    dmapr Silver Senior Member
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    LOL, I know the guy doing the schooling
     
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  23. viewfly

    viewfly Mobile RF Advisor
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    Looks like the FBI is after WhatsApp too. From this week.

    "WASHINGTON — While the Justice Department wages a public fight with Apple over access to a locked iPhone, government officials are privately debating how to resolve a prolonged standoff with another technology company, WhatsApp, over access to its popular instant messaging application, officials and others involved in the case said.
    No decision has been made, but a court fight with WhatsApp, the world’s largest mobile messaging service, would open a new front in the Obama administration’s dispute with Silicon Valley over encryption, security and privacy.
    WhatsApp, which is owned by Facebook, allows customers to send messages and make phone calls over the Internet. In the last year, the company has been adding encryption to those conversations, making it impossible for the Justice Department to read or eavesdrop, even with a judge’s wiretap order."


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  24. palandri

    palandri Former Palm Guy
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    A few years ago, wasn't there an email company with real strong encryption that closed up due to pressure from the government? and the guy who owned it wouldn't give a straight answer as to why he closed it?
     
  25. viewfly

    viewfly Mobile RF Advisor
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    A vague memory but no details that I can recall.

    That would have been before Snowden.


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  26. Scrumhalf

    Scrumhalf Bronze Senior Member
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    The company's name is Lavabit. The owner closed it down rather than hand over all the encryption keys that the feds wanted.

    He wrote an opinion piece here:

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/may/20/why-did-lavabit-shut-down-snowden-email

    Don't want to bring too much politics into this, but this whole episode was chilling. It makes what Snowden did even more heroic. A government that operates in secret is a government that, untrammeled by checks and balances, inevitably and inexorably slides towards tyranny.
     
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    #56 Scrumhalf, Mar 20, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2016
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  27. palandri

    palandri Former Palm Guy
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    Thanks scrumhalf, I couldn't remember the name of the email company. I wonder why Apple and Google didn't help Lavabit back then?
     
  28. viewfly

    viewfly Mobile RF Advisor
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    An interesting read. Thanks for posting.


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  29. Scrumhalf

    Scrumhalf Bronze Senior Member
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    I'd say that Apple seems to have found religion recently. In 2013, Greenwald revealed that companies like Google and Apple allowed the NSA access to their data. Here is an article in the Guardian:

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/06/us-tech-giants-nsa-data

    Of course they denied it but at that time, I will believe Snowden before I believe any of these guys. So, Apple's current position is commendable, but their holier-than-thou attitude is a bit sanctimonious given what happened just a few years ago.
     
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  30. viewfly

    viewfly Mobile RF Advisor
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    I don't know whether Apple or Google found religion or not, but all these companies (including carriers) were in a difficult public and government position.

    I think that Apple's aim is to have Congress step down from their holier than thou attitude and make a decision.

    Without trying to take any sides, here is my view.

    Before Snowden, companies did relent under government pressure, because after all, it was terrorism, national security. They relented, but with a not so good feeling in the stomach.

    At least it was secret. The public didn't know, nor foreign governments, friend or foe. (Although, if you believe spy movies, it should not be a big shock ;) ).

    And then there was Snowden. Now everyone knew. Everyone was mad, and not so friendly foreign governments wanted the same (and mad at the same time, so it goes).

    Even Congress was mad. Although congressional committees knew of course since they oversee the NSA.

    And the public was now mad at Verizon, Apple, Google and everyone. Criminals not too happy either.

    So what did Apple, Google decide? Heck, let's make keys that we cannot recover. So we cannot give, what we don't have. Even to foreign governments, friend or foe.

    Now with the recent FBI action, through the courts, Apple is being asked for something like that once again, something that Congress doesn't want to dirty their political hands with. Having the courts decide and Apple to follow is sidestepping congressional responsibility. Something they are happy to have happen.

    To me, Apple is declaring foul and doesn't wish to be the precedent setting company so easily. I think if Congress passed laws, then Apple would buckle. Unless the Supreme steps in and overrules.

    In someways, Snowden did the right thing, but he also blew open a secret the US didn't wish the world to know. And criminals and terrorist are happy, for now. I think we have to beef up our defenses in other ways. After all congress seems to accept the risk of deaths by guns by not allowing collection of information on gun/ammo sales in the US. So maybe they should change that too.




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