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The News of My Death is Premature

Discussion in 'GENERAL Wireless Discussion' started by KevinJames, Jan 14, 2015.

  1. KevinJames

    KevinJames WA's 1st retired mod
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    I was reading an article about Sony considering selling off its mobile segment. After reflecting on that, coupled with Blackberry's struggles and the news that Samsung took a 60% profit loss last year, I made the following comment on another website. I'd like to hear you folks take on the industry:

    I think I’m finally beginning to see the REAL and WHOLE story. As much as the pundits have taken their pot shots at Samsung, the real story is that the whole industry is getting hit. Market saturation has gotten such that it is impossible to expect the charts to continue showing growth. It is now a leveling and holding of whatever market-share these companies can grab. Now, I know some with argue that the newer companies that are undercutting the established ones with cheaper products disprove my musings, but actually, they prove it. In a few years people will become more acquainted with those companies and their products. Just like all other companies, a love/hate relationship will grow. The wave rushes in, the wave washes out, but there's always tide pools and residual moisture in the sand. Time will tell what the market can truly bear--how much "water" each company can hold.

    My take on this is that the mobile industry needs to change gears and accept that after reaching saturation, they need to change their profit model to one of maintenance, which means business structure changes, cutting back on portions of the business that served their purpose during the ramp up, but are no longer useful. R&D will always be needed, but not at the break neck speeds in the past.
     
  2. JFB

    JFB Gold Senior Member
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    Actually I think it is the higher end that is the problem for those companies that are not Apple. The higher end is where the profits are and Apple has vacuumed up most of the profits. I think human nature is to want something better. Since Apple has convinced many people that their product is the ultimate, and can charge a premium for that notion, they will continue to suck up most of the profits of the mobile device industry. No company has been better at making profits for shareholders than Apple.
     
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  3. KevinJames

    KevinJames WA's 1st retired mod
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    Very enlightening, JFB. I wonder how many of those Apple-propaganda iPhone-superiority buyers know that Samsung and others actually make the internals of the iPhone. At one point, Samsung was even providing the screens--although I don't know if that is true anymore.

     
  4. charlyee

    charlyee Ultimate Insanity
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    KJ, the link brings me to the Google search screen.

    About Apple, very few Apple or any other mobile users, care who makes what in their device. If the device suits them then that's all it matters.

    The biggest advantage that Apple has is the complete control of their device, no waiting for the provider, hardware or software manufacturer etc. all updates come straight from Apple and world over on the same day, this is really hard to beat. I did my last update from overseas and it was just as smooth as other times.

    Even on my Nexus 7 and Moto X, Death Star still held up updates and/or enhancements, this should not happen.

    I think there are many factors, the market saturation, the entry level Smartphones that are quite good for the price, are definitely there.

    In Apple's defense from my experience, iOS devices have the least gimmick, which makes them easy to use and less prone to quirk.s It's a cliché, but it really just works.

    Just my 2 cents.

    PS: I am dying to get my hands on a Motorola Turbo but Evil Red has a death grip on it, just wanted to let you know that I am not an iSheep . :D


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  5. dmapr

    dmapr Silver Senior Member
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    The Google search screen is the correct destination. It's the search results that matter ;)

    There's no denying that Apple update model is superior to Google's, even if we take into account Nexus devices only. Nobody likes staggered releases and nobody likes the OTA to be the only delivery mechanism. Those who are more technically inclined do not suffer as much, but it's still a bit of a drag.

    Another reason why I think Apple is not as susceptible to saturation is they make upgrades much more desirable on a yearly basis. Compare that with Samsung/HTC -- it is not always the case that the next year's model (flagship, since we want to be comparing apples to Apple's) is a worthy upgrade over the last. With iPhones it's very rare that people can shrug off a new model without a second thought (Galaxy S4 -> S5, HTC One M7 -> M8 -- I'm looking at you).
     
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  6. KevinJames

    KevinJames WA's 1st retired mod
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    I really do enjoy hearing the perspective of others. Although I worked for AT&T when the first iPhone was released and a few subsequent to that, I could never afford it. (Well, actually I could, but opted for less expensive touch-screen solutions.) I didn't intend to discredit the iPHone. There is no denying that many people like it. My only point is that, in truth, the components inside the iPhone are no more "quality" than is any other company. As proof of that position, I cited a link that shows numerous articles that Samsung indeed makes iPhone parts. So the glory for iPhone is all hype in my opinion.

    I have at least a dozen friends that use iPhones and love them. Unfortunately, when they come to me for tech support, I have to handle it blindly because i know little about the devices. I make my best effort and usually I can at least direct them to a source that can help them--usually a link about the issue they are encountering.

    I don't hate iPhones, but I do hate Apple corp for their business practices. (And no, I'm not going to go into details.)
     
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  7. charlyee

    charlyee Ultimate Insanity
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    This is what I get from the link, where are the results?
    [​IMG]



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  8. dmapr

    dmapr Silver Senior Member
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    Charlyee -- I get the results both on the desktop browser and on my phone. I have a sneaky suspicion your problem lies with your chosen OS :)
     
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  9. charlyee

    charlyee Ultimate Insanity
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    I figured, the Apple Samsung "fight" continues.

    Seriously I have never had a problem where I couldn't see Google search results.


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  10. dmapr

    dmapr Silver Senior Member
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    Could be a tapatalk problem. You can narrow it down by opening the site in Mobile Safari instead of Tapatalk.
     
  11. charlyee

    charlyee Ultimate Insanity
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    dmapr, yes you were right, not that I had doubts. :p
    [​IMG]

    KJ, back on topic I didn't mean to imply you were knocking the iPhone, my "defense" of them was more directed at JFB. Sorry should have quoted his post as well.

    I think another proof that the market has saturated, is the lack of posts on forums like these. Only the OS specific forums are still going strong.


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    #11 charlyee, Jan 14, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2015
  12. KevinJames

    KevinJames WA's 1st retired mod
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    Yes, as Charlyee noted above, I searched on: samsung makes iphone. Use that in whichever browser you want.
     
  13. dmapr

    dmapr Silver Senior Member
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    Charlyee, check to see if there are any Tapatalk app updates you haven't installed. If not, send them a bug report :)
     
  14. charlyee

    charlyee Ultimate Insanity
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    It's that update that's the problem. It is pretty strange to look at and lost some good features.

    The iForums are full of complaints on the latest version. I am not exactly sure that the update was my problem but since I have never had it happen before, I will assume it's the update.

    I sent them a bug report, rumor has it that an update to the update is in the works.

    Thanks


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  15. viewfly

    viewfly Mobile RF Advisor
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    I know the very first iPhone (1) was expensive, since there was no subsidy. But from the 3G onwards, I'd pay $199 or $299 at ATT and that was as fair a price as the competition, for a high end smartphone.

    On that article about Samsung parts inside of Apple's phones, so the iPhone's quality is no better than Samsung's? I'm not really sure that is what you meant. But I don't agree.

    The inference doesn't really apply. Spending a good chunk of my life in engineering and manufacturing of very high end products, I've learned a few things.

    By analogy, loosely, I can purchase my painting materials from the same store as Da Vinci, but my end result is nothing to be proud about ;)

    Samsung made the first 64bit chip for Apple,( but designed by Apple) but a 64 Bit cpu does not appear in any Samsung smartphone. Android doesn't support it yet. And for the current iPhone 6 and 6 plus, the A8 64 bit CPU is not made by Samsung. It is made my competitor TSMC. But the A9 might be made by Samy, if they win the bid. Apple plays vendors off of each other, for the lowest price.

    The same is true many times with LED screens. Apple multi sources them, even for the same year's model. It is only a question of who can provide the volume in a good quality...but the specifications and design is Apple's (wholly in the case of the CPU).

    Apple's order for parts from Samsung is keeping them afloat. But regardless, a chip house like Samy, makes SiC's for many vendors, and the first rule is you do not steal, loan or tell others what the design is. Never, Never, Never. So Intel does not call up Samy and say, 'Hey, give me that same standards, and process that you did for Apple' Chip vendors have to keep a reputation. Or you are out of business, period.

    While it is true sometimes a company will sole source or buy the source, mostly the same shop that makes Mercedes parts will make parts for Ford, but to a much different level of quality. Even if it can't be helped to be the same quality, would you call a Mercedes the same as a Ford? You get what the company pays for, not the best of what can be made. And the design remains with Mercedes or Apple, for example.

    I think people like that Apple is designed in America, and that it is cutting edge and high quality.

    The idea that marketing can sell anything, is flawed too, when looked at over many years. People do not prop up bad products, or even good products over better ones, 6 years in a row.. Apple makes a better product, many times, because of the integration, Charylee spoke of. Exactly the way iOS supports 64 bit and Android did not. So Samy is limited by an outside vendor...the way Steve Jobs said he would never, never, ever be again ( the lesson learned was from Adobe, if I remember correctly)

    On the original OP question, it is interesting. But so far Apple share of the market is growing even more, with the larger screen iPhone 6, 6+. Profits are huge, and I see no reason for them to go into maintenance mode, yet. The iWatch, if successful, will only grow the demand for the iPhone, IMHO.


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  16. dmapr

    dmapr Silver Senior Member
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    Samsung Galaxy Note 4 SM-N910C has a 64-bit CPU inside. Android Lollipop supports 64-bit architectures.
     
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  17. viewfly

    viewfly Mobile RF Advisor
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  18. KevinJames

    KevinJames WA's 1st retired mod
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    Well, if nothing else, I started a good discussion here. After working for ATT for 17 years and hearing behind-the-scenes stories, I'm still holding to the position that Apple's quality is no better than anyone else's. But I do understand the opposing point of view. I'm not here to bash or bask anyone's product. They all have their foibles. The last couple updates on Note3 have made me so frustrated that I feel like throwing the CLIP against the wall or taking a hammer to it. But then I remember how completely my life depends on it.
     
  19. dmapr

    dmapr Silver Senior Member
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    No, I don't know what you're saying :) You stated two things like they were facts while they're not -- that's the only thing I was pointing out. I myself am squarely in the camp that says that until you need to support more than 4GB of memory the use of 64-bit CPUs is mostly a waste of horsepower -- but it didn't seem pertinent to the discussion so I excised it from my post just before hitting the Post Reply button.
     
  20. viewfly

    viewfly Mobile RF Advisor
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    You have to look at the timeline of introduction. When introduced in September 2013, on the 5S, that was the state of affairs, and it shocked the industry. Lollipop came available in November, 2014, correct?

    Still a detail. Point being, having Apples chip make by Samsung, did nothing for Samsung's product line. Well, maybe it faltered in sales.


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  21. viewfly

    viewfly Mobile RF Advisor
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    KJ, it is not to say anything about the quality of Samsung's part, it is just not the same part. So one can't say it's the same phone cause it has some Samy parts in it.


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  22. KevinJames

    KevinJames WA's 1st retired mod
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    Viewfly: I agree with your last statement. If i gave any indication I felt differently, I'm sorry. I readily acknowledge that the parts and pieces may be different. Does Apple hold Samsung to a higher manufacturing standard than Samsung holds itself to? That would be an interesting thing to investigate.

    However, what I have seen of the end result (the consumer product), I don't see the quality benefits. Some may cite metal verses plastic case. I think plastic is actually the wiser choice because of it being a mobile device that does experience a lot of abuse in the real world. Then there is Bend Gate. When Sammy announced and released their metal case, I was just waiting for Bend Gate to hit them as well. I haven't heard anything so far. Does that prove Sammy's metal body is better? Not necessarily. There is always the bigger picture to consider.
     
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  23. dmapr

    dmapr Silver Senior Member
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    State of marketing affairs. Technically it gained nothing -- apart from 64-bit related crashes that Charlyee probably remembers all too vividly that is. It was a gimmick then and it is a gimmick now. The problem is that the shocked industry now has to respond in kind -- there was absolutely no need yet to bring 64-bit chips to the Android platform. Yes, Lollipop became available in November, although some 64-bit Android phones were released much earlier than that.

    The point is that Samsung & Apple would not be where they are now without each other. The chip division of Samsung adds to profits, the Samsung production volumes enable Apple to satisfy the demand. There aren't that many chip manufacturers that can & will do that. The fact that the parts are made by Samsung or any other non-Apple entity really have no bearing on the quality of Apple product -- that's what the quality control & stringent standards are for. It has even less bearing on Samsung's product since those parts never find their way inside them :)

    Very good point KJ! I wouldn't be surprised if Samsung hasn't set quite as high standards for themselves as Apple imposed on their manufacturing. And I too prefer the plastic bodies -- alas, if the latest rumors are true they may become a thing of the past :(
     
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  24. charlyee

    charlyee Ultimate Insanity
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    Ugh! Do I ever remember. :(

    I lived with my crashing iPad Air until March of 2014, a good four months after the iPad was launched and 6 after the 5s was launched.
     
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  25. viewfly

    viewfly Mobile RF Advisor
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    Okay, this is getting too far off the point. Maybe I made some poor analogies. I'm just trying some way to get this point across: Using the argument that since Samsung makes some internals for Apple, therefore that should become an "ah ahhh" moment and one slaps their head, thinking what a fool I have been to buy Apple smartphones, when I should be buying direct from Samsung... , if you think about it, is not the way it really is.

    I guess that is so obvious to me. But this is always the classic argument of Apple versus 'the other'. Compare component bare specs ( speed, bits, pixel counts) on one hand, or look at the bigger picture and how the hardware and OS are tailored together and other engineering details that made it smooth product.

    BTW, I never had any crashes with my 5S, 64 bit iPhone. I think games came out that quickly made use of the advanced chip, but I'm not a gamer. There are various articles to read for 64 bits. Just like the fingerprint sensor seemed a bit of a gimmick to some, it is now obvious that the bigger game plan was Apple Pay.


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  26. charlyee

    charlyee Ultimate Insanity
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    KJ,

    You started a thought provoking thread here so let's have those opinions and ideas coming.

    I personally do not like the "maintenance" mode, innovation always has to be there in some form or other.

    I am going to say lack of innovation played a major part in the demise of Nokia and other such wireless giants. If BB doesn't do something innovative, they will not be around much longer either.

    Just my 2 cents.



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