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Stop The Spying!

Discussion in 'GENERAL Wireless Discussion' started by Shizuka, Sep 20, 2007.

  1. Shizuka

    Shizuka Junior Member
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    Americans fought a revolution in 1776 to end the government's blanket power to invade individuals' privacy. We must return to our roots and restore the Constitution immediately: No surveillance of Americans' communications without a warrant.


    http://www.stopthespying.org/
     
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  2. RJB

    RJB Gold Senior Member
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    Um ok honestly why worry about this unless you are doing something wrong.
     
  3. Shizuka

    Shizuka Junior Member
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    Who defines what is enough wrong to spy you without a curt order?

    The issue is not about wiretapping your phone. It is about the illegal collaboration between telecoms and the government. There is a legal procedure to get the court orders to spy on you. But they ( few people on the government) don't even want to follow their own laws.
     
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  4. RJB

    RJB Gold Senior Member
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    Ok but for me I am not worried about it if they want to spy then for hell sakes spy. They are not going to gain anything from spying on me. This is all my opinion.
     
  5. walkguru

    walkguru Wireless Guru
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    Wirelessly posted (Walkguru's: Opera/8.01 (J2ME/MIDP; Opera Mini/3.1.8295/1710; en; U; ssr))

    same here spie away.
     
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  6. strunke

    strunke .:|Always Covered|:.
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    "Americans fought a revolution in 1776 to end the government's blanket power to invade individuals' privacy."

    That isn't the real reason they fought. It is a lot more complicated then that.

    I don't care if they spy on me. If you are doing something illegal then you shouldn't be talking about it on the phone (or doing it all for that matter). That's your fault. And evidence gathered regardless of how it is gathered will be reviewed in a court of law (especially for American citizens), so this is a non-issue.

    This issue has been taken up and made partisan by pundits and the truth is. There is no issue, it has to be done. If you don't like it. Don't buy a phone, this is a different world we live in today. There are very few "frontiers" for open society any more and if evil didn't exist then this wouldn't be an problem. But it does, people are inherently bad and only become "civilized" by religion, culture, parenting/family. The law is there for all those that are never exposed to society/culture/parenting or are failed by them. It is to protect the people that actually want to contribute and live their lives without hurting others.

    /End rant
     
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  7. RJB

    RJB Gold Senior Member
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    Strunke I value your insight on this and wow you really inpress me with this comment.:biggrin:
     
  8. strunke

    strunke .:|Always Covered|:.
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    Thanks RJB! :)
     
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  9. M in LA

    M in LA Mobile 28 Years Plus
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    I agree with you on this too, strunke.
     
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  10. Shizuka

    Shizuka Junior Member
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    I’m not against wiretapping terrorist suspects or ‘evil’ people as you mentioned. But there is a due process of law to do that.
    And the ‘Due Process of Law’ is what keeps the order, because laws mean nothing if they are not followed. That is the way laws are created. We want to live in a society of law and order. But, where is the law and the order when the government would not follow the very own laws it created to make society works?
    If the government don’t follow the laws, then what we have? That is how democracy ends.


    Yes there is indeed a BIG ISSUE. Communications companies like AT&T were collaborating with the NSA without a court order or subpoena, and that my friend is ILLEGAL.

    AT&T broke the LAW.
    The NSA broke the LAW.
    AT&T is NOT the law
    The NSA is NOT the law
    The people IS the LAW.
    Nobody is ABOVE the law.
    If people break the law they pay CONSECUENCES.
    IF AT&T and NSA broke the LAW they should pay CONSECUENCES.

    So what privacy groups and civil rights groups are trying to do is to wake-people up from their long the-government-is-my-dad-and-my-dad-have-absolute-powers-over-my –being-so-I–must-obey-whatever-daddy-government-do-to-me, dream.

    But if you want to keep dreaming the long dream, keep sleeping my friend. That is the same attitude that made 9-11 happened.
     
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  11. RJB

    RJB Gold Senior Member
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    Well see we can choose what path we want to choose, so you say we are sleeping who is to say what is right or not. Noone has the right answer.
     
  12. coalminer

    coalminer Senior Member
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    I just have to chime in and say I am all for the spying also, we cant use the same thought process that the founders of our country used, these are very different times. FBI, CIA, NSA, keep up the good work!!!!! And if you listen in on any of my conversations with my girlfriends, I wont be mad if you call my wife.........:browani:
     
  13. walkguru

    walkguru Wireless Guru
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    i agree also, but if your that paranoid get a go phone, i guess.
     
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  14. Shizuka

    Shizuka Junior Member
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    Why We Worry

    A pattern is emerging
    August 7th, 2007 at 6:33 PM ET by Chris in Misc. , U.S. , Insane , Opinion , Law
    Short version: Congress has given Attorney General Alberto Gonzales the power to spy on Americans and foreigners with little to no oversight.

    Long version: I’ve written a bit about the destruction of the 4th Amendment that is the NSA wiretapping scandal. I’ve wanted to write about this particular story since Friday night. It’s just so maddening and it’s not exactly a simple situation to explain, but here goes. In response to the Nixon administration’s abuse of wiretaps (he was spying on political opponents), Congress created the secret FISA court which was tasked with approving wiretaps. Since it’s inception in 1978 it has denied less than 10 warrants while approving more than 18,000.

    While not a robust check on executive power, it was a check. Shortly after 9/11 the President created an NSA program that was authorized to spy on Americans and foreigners to search for evidence of terrorist activity. This program did not go to the FISA court for approval for the eavesdropping despite the court’s clear jurisdiction. So, because the government is conducting this spying in secret, we have no idea who they are spying on. This is precisely the situation that the FISA court was designed to prevent.

    After this program’s existence was uncovered by the NY Times, Bush admitted its existence and very clearly stated that he would continue the program in violation of existing law (definitely grounds for impeachment). The Bush administration also made it quite clear that it sought no changes to the FISA court until, of course, the 2006 election season rolled around. Then it became a top priority, but Congress resisted.

    Fast-forward to last week. The President and Republicans in Congress are suddenly is predicting doomsday is at hand and that the FISA law must be amended. The amendment is quickly written, hardly debated, and passed this weekend by the Democractic Congress.

    Of course the law is terrible. It totally guts the power of the FISA court. To be wiretapped you no longer have to suspected of being a terrorist or foreign spy, you only have to be suspected of being foreign or talking to someone who is suspected of being foreign. And guess who makes that distinction. Yes, Attorney General Alberto Gonzales. Just the man who we should be giving more and more power to. The FISA court’s role has been reduced to that of a rubber stamp. They don’t approve or disapprove of wiretaps on an individual basis, they can only approve or disapprove of the process used to determine who is being wiretapped. Genius!
     
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  15. Fire14

    Fire14 Easy,Cheap & Sleazy
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    I think the only thing they would get from me at times are some wild conversations, :browani: I have no problem with them doing this.

    Very nicely said strunke, people don't always see the bigger issues.


    As someone that lived 9-11 in more ways then you could have being on an island, you may not have seen or realized the impact as much as those in NYC, NJ, PA, DC & VA/MD. There are a lot of things happening in this country by these terrorist's & the goverment needs what resources it can to stop them & keep all of us here in the USA safe from them.

    Don't think the war is just oversea's, there are a alot of things happening in North America (including Canada & Mexico) that can have serious impacts on all of us.

    I agree when or if things calm down, then is the time to visit this issue, but people seem to forget the events 6 years ago pretty quickly.
     
  16. Shizuka

    Shizuka Junior Member
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    My friend, I will never forget the events 6 years ago, even living on this Island. About 1 million Puerto Ricans live in NYC.

    I agree the President, the CIA, the FBI the NSA, the 'whatever non-existent agency' , resourses it needs should be granted for the purpose of keeping the peace on American soil.

    Sometimes I wonder, what peace is needed if peace is won by the wrong doing?
    What liberty is safer if it was taken by injustice?
    On how means should i prefer more freedom if it is caused by violating the Constitution of The Unites States of America?
     
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  17. strunke

    strunke .:|Always Covered|:.
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    9/11 happened because we weren't aggressive enough in pursuing suspected terrorists. We thought it could never happen we were sleeping.

    Some laws literally get in the way of investigations, when it comes to terror suspects (especially sense they are often non-US citizens) I have no problem with it. Trust me, by the time it takes to get subpoenas it's already happened. That's the nature of intelligence. It's not always nice and clean that we can get a subpoena before they actually monitor the suspect. It should be cleared by a judge, but within a reasonable amount of time after (say 48 hours). If not, then any evidence gathered should be considered invalid. That is the best way around this. It's not perfect, but our legal system isn't perfect.
     
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  18. nKrypteD1

    nKrypteD1 Software Architect
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    I'm gonna throw my 5 cents in here, I don't neccessarily agree with a one of you (this is my right just like it's your right to call me a tard) but there have to be limits to the powers a government has. We as citizens have an obligation to preserve our privacy. The government is supposed to be for the people by the people, i.e. we are the government, a lot of people have forgotten that and feel that our government is a machine that is out of our control and to an extent it's true, we have stopped policing our government and have started being policed (politically) by our government.

    Just remember the expression you give them an inch they'll take a foot, if we give the government blanket power to revoke our privacy, what's next? Are we going to submit to constant surveilance next? There are books and movies about this, does the name Big Brother come to anybodys mind? There are several facts that we all need to take into consideration, first and foremost with power comes a thirst for more power and a strong urge to keep said power. Be very aware of that fact, as we'll see the changes over the next 10 years if politicans realize they can get away with whatever they want.
     
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  19. strunke

    strunke .:|Always Covered|:.
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    First of course you have the right to say what you'd like. Just like this website does and I don't call anyone stupid unless they do not understand the point they are arguing. Which you do understand it so don't worry. :)

    You have to remember the first and most important function of government. It is defense of the nation. While absolute power does corrupt absolutely. Having the ability to monitor potential terrorists through telecommunication is not giving them ultimate power. It is a small small part of it. They already have the ability to do whatever they want, even if we think they don't. All this does is give them the ability to use what they find in a court of law.

    London is monitored by CCTV, there haven't been major abuses with this system by the government. I don't see any abuse by the government that could actual come of this practice we are talking about. Yes you could say where does it end? That is a very good question. The answer is know one knows for sure, if the world's society continues to churn out these maniacs then it may grow. But what you speak of is not as worry some to me, because the great thing about our country is that it has checks and balances. The government is what we make of it, and if we (or the majority) want to stop these types of incidences from happening then we will make the neccessary sacrifices. If we do not want that (as a majority) and deem those sacrifices too great, then we also hold the power to remove said abilities we have given to the government through various outlets (media, the voting booth, etc).

    This website is an alarmist reaction to something that doesn't require a firefighter, so to speak. But however wrong they may be they can feel free to voice their opinion that is why the US is great, and we are free to agree or disagree. But being able to monitor criminals and terrorists over the phone is a very small sacrifice we can all make even if it only increases the chances by 10 percent that the lives of 3,000 innocent civilians going to work to make ends meet, our people, will never be lost again. But it's great we can talk about this and debate it and if necessary take action on it. If the government were to take away that right.....then we should start worrying, but that is not happening now, nor do I see it happening in the future...
     
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  20. Fire14

    Fire14 Easy,Cheap & Sleazy
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    I do hope you realize I do worry about our goverment abusing their powers & know how things can grow from a protection standpoint to them using it for whatever they want.

    My point is by them doing this they have the chances to catch anyone planning an attack on us & not slip up like they did prior to 9/11. It's a fine line for sure & we need to keep the goverment reminded of the fact they are for the people.

    I think we lost a lot of this battle prior to 9/11 with all the laws they keep making that restrict our lives, their biggest egg they love to use is "It's a Health isssue" to make a lot of laws we now have & to me this is a bigger abuse then them listening in on conversations at this current time.

    Heck they keep adding more & more camera's on the roadways & other locations, it won't be long before we are like other countries with these things, next we will all be bar coded with our SS #.
    Remember the orignal use of the SS # was "Not to be used for identification purpose" well that has been removed & now it's a primary for them & Credit companies. This is a catch 22 as well, since how else can they track potential terrorists, without a database of information such as an id #.

    I think these can be bigger issues that should be fought right now.
     
  21. nKrypteD1

    nKrypteD1 Software Architect
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    Actually you can forget the SSN theory, look at the RealID act ;)
     
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