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Phone Companies being given right to spy on Americans

Discussion in 'GENERAL Wireless Discussion' started by Fire14, Feb 12, 2008.

  1. Fire14

    Fire14 Easy,Cheap & Sleazy
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    Phone companies being given right to spy on you
    Commentary: Fearful Democrats cave on constitutional protections


    If Al Qaeda is fighting us because they hate our freedoms, as President Bush often says, then they're winning the war.
    Pretty soon, we won't have any more freedoms for them to hate.
    Scratch the Fourth Amendment off the list of freedoms that we thought we had. Read the Fourth Amendment.

    Pressured by a huge lobbying effort by Big Telecom and by fears of being painted as weak on terrorism, the Democratic-controlled Senate has rolled over on your right to privacy, abandoning legislation that would enforce the constitutional requirements of probable cause and due process of law before the phone companies can help the government spy on you by turning over your phone records, emails and other sensitive information.

    Instead, the bill now moving toward passage would give the phone companies broad legal immunity when they collect and turn over any information on you that the government says it needs. No warrant needed. No questions asked.

    On Tuesday, the Senate, with the backing of 18 Democrats and every Republican, defeated attempts by Sens. Chris Dodd and Russ Feingold to hold the telecom companies accountable for their past illegal conduct.

    Sen. Barack Obama voted for your freedom. Sen. John McCain voted against you. Sen. Hillary Clinton didn't vote but is opposed to immunity, a spokesman said.
    Immunity for telecoms

    The only hope for your freedom to be secure against "unreasonable searches" now rests in the hands of the House, which passed a wiretapping bill that does not give the telecom companies amnesty.

    Bush has promised to veto the wiretapping bill if it does not include the telecom amnesty provision, even though he has said the bill is essential to keep America safe.
    You might think the veto threat means the president values the telecom companies' profits more than he values your life, but really he values his own skin. Giving immunity for the telecoms means that Bush and his administration will never be held legally accountable for their crimes because the truth will never come out.

    The Bush administration and the Republican leadership have lied consistently about the secret domestic spy program that bypasses the special court that was set up in the 1970s in response to the nation's outrage about the government spying on American citizens without a judicial order. They say it's all about listening in when Al Qaeda calls, but the secret program appears to go far beyond that admirable goal.

    During the debate on the wiretapping bill, the Republicans said the government wasn't able to save the lives of some American contractors in Iraq because the legal niceties took too long. But the lives were actually lost because the intelligence agencies and the Justice Department bungled the case, not because Congress had tied their hands.
    Domestic spy program still murky

    It's perfectly legal (under current U.S. law) for the U.S. government to spy on terrorists in Iraq. What the Constitution forbids is unreasonable searches of American citizens inside the United States, which apparently have gone on unfettered for the past seven years.
    The U.S. domestic spy program expanded by the Bush administration remains murky. What few details are known are troubling, because they suggest that the government has the ability and the will to collect massive amounts of information about ordinary citizens in real time, with the enthusiastic support of the major telecommunications companies seeking lucrative government contracts and without any check by the courts.

    While the administration says the 9/11 attacks made such spying necessary, the White House began expanding its domestic spying program well before September 2001, according to court documents filed by Joseph Nacchio, the former head of Qwest, who claims his refusal to violate the law and turn over private information to the government led to the denial of a big government contract for his company and to his subsequent conviction on insider trading.

    The phone companies, including AT&T, and Verizon Communications, that did go along with the spying are being sued by privacy advocates. Current law specifically prohibits the phone companies from turning over private information to the government without due process. One judge has already ruled against the phone companies.

    In their defense, the phone companies say they were just being patriotic and that anything they did was requested by the Justice Department. But just in case their legal argument fails, the companies have spent millions lobbying to get the law changed retroactively.

    The bill now being rushed through a complacent Senate would kill those lawsuits by giving the phone companies blanket immunity for past and future transgressions. No questions asked.
    Because the Congress has refused to investigate the secret spying program (even in a secret session), the private lawsuits are the only way the truth about the spying program will ever be known. Giving amnesty to the telecoms effectively gives amnesty to Bush and other officials who ordered the spying.

    If spying on Americans is justified, the administration should be forced by Congress or the courts to prove it. Neither the telecoms nor the administration has proven that.
    Those who support ripping up the Constitution often say that if you don't have anything to hide, warrantless spying shouldn't bother you.

    The same standard should apply to the phone companies. If they don't have anything to hide, then why do they need immunity? Why shouldn't Congress, the courts and the people know the full extent of the spying and its legal justification?

    Chalk up another victory for the terrorists, who hate our freedom. So too, apparently, does the U.S. government.

    Phone companies being given right to spy on you - MarketWatch
     
    #1 Fire14, Feb 12, 2008
  2. PCSuser

    PCSuser Senior Member
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    I have nothing to loose! So go ahead... spy on me all you want! I have nothing to keep secret.

    But for those who do, FIND THEM and prosecute them!

    -PCSuser
     
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    #2 PCSuser, Feb 12, 2008
  3. hf1khal

    hf1khal Who am I to judge
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    I agree I also have nothing to loose. But looking as to how thinks are going it sure seems it is going the way it is happening in the third world countries and where we say they have no freedom because the Big Brother is always watching and listening to them and our government keeps on telling them to stop and grant the freedom and democracy. I just hope we don't end up doing everything that we are telling them not to do.
     
    #3 hf1khal, Feb 13, 2008
  4. RJB

    RJB Gold Senior Member
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    Wow I understand a changing world requires thing to be changed as well. But wow I really feel like I can't even think without the government going in my head
     
    #4 RJB, Feb 16, 2008
  5. hf1khal

    hf1khal Who am I to judge
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    Well based on the news today, so far it is held up. The democrats do not want to give the immunity as was requested by the administration. I can't blame them if the telecos did not do anything wrong, then they have nothing to fear and if they did wrong then they need to be punished for it as the vlaue of the trust that the cnsumer has given to them was breached.
     
    #5 hf1khal, Feb 16, 2008
  6. Jerro

    Jerro Bronze Senior Member
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    They are not going to spy on anyone who is not suspected of connections with terrorists. The program is also automatic computerized scanning of information on calls that are from foreign countries with switching in the US or to or from a party outside the US to a person who may be in the US wherein terror is suspected.

    Mohammad Atta for instance calling Bin Laden, prior to 9-11.

    The phone companies need to be assured that they won't be sued for helping preserve the nation from terror. Would anyone here like to be sued for preventing a crime of cataclysmic proportion?
     
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    #6 Jerro, Feb 17, 2008
  7. Chinasaur

    Chinasaur Senior Member
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    1. Our country was bulit on the basis of RIGHT to privacy. Anything that undermines that right undermines the country.
    2. Of course the Gov't will abuse anything you give them. They are human. 99% of all convictions under the new "terrorism" laws are for criminal offenses..not "trrrsm". Nothing in the new laws would have helped them catch these people. Just gave them new ways to do it. It hasn't caught a single "terrrsts".
    3. The Telco's participated in ILLEGAL wiretapping. How hard is that to understand? The PRESIDENT is GUILTY of authorizing ILLEGAL wiretaps. How hard is that to understand? Why shouldn't someone stand up and DEMAND they be held accountable?
    4. Those people who shout "the sky is falling and sumthing BAAADDD is gunna happen unless you give us our way with YOUR constitutional rights.." are just fear mongering. It allows criminals in power to take more of your Constitutionally granted rights away.

    This Govt' lies about the reasons we went to war. They lie about torturing people. They lie about illegally wiretapping people. Why makes you think they will stop at just "hunting trrrsts.". History shows and proves that humans will always exceed any powers granted and grab more power. AND, they will always ABUSE that power. That is undeniably proven by history.

    This quote can't be used enough - Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

    Do you honestly think that those who died on 9/11 would want to see their deaths used by selfish and self-serving men to take away the Freedom and Rights we love and cherish?

    If you had died on 9/11.....Would you?
     
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    #7 Chinasaur, Feb 22, 2008
  8. Chinasaur

    Chinasaur Senior Member
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    A few "other" things..

    1. ALL phone companies, except Qwest (if you belive the news) are cooperating with this legal/illegal surveillance of Americans. So this whole thread is almost mooted by the current regime's illegality.

    2. The FISA court is the ONLY power under US LAW that can authorize surveillance. ANYONE else is authorizing such acts is committing a FELONY if they command person to engage in wiretapping. US Law.
    Here is how it will play out if you belive that "situational ethics" authorize breaking law to interrogate people.

    1. I drive drunk and kill your daughter. I should be held accountable. I personally drunk drivers who kill should be executed but that's my bias.
    2. Now what about a Dr who kills your baby daughter rushing to the hospital to save the life of a Nobel Peace Prize winner?
    3. Now what about a sober driver who kills your daugher when speeding to hospital to take his pregnant wife to delivery room?
    4. Now here is how current trends will play out.... If you believe that the ends justify the means and that "laws" and "ethics" and "moraility" can be set aside at any time to satisfy the needs of the day....

    Drunk high ranking offical speeds and kills your daughter. Police are denied access to this individual as he claims he was on "secret mission/national security sensitive mission" at time. Not only will Police be denied access to individual for blood test..but said individual will declare incident under "National Security/State Secrets" and JAIL you for even mentioning that your daughter was killed. You can't sue because just this week the US Supreme Court says that the US "State Secret" rule is inviolate and can't be challenged.

    You, now, as US Citizens, have NO RECOURSE under law for a Gov';t that runs amok..or might run amok later. The Supremes have spoken on the side of the Govt. You just have "trust" that they tell you the truth. ... And of course, you belive them, because you KNOW they are trustworthy.

    Fun huh? And it's coming... just wait and do nothing and you'll have it...right in your laps...

    3. US Citizens have had Habeus Corpus removed from their rights. The Military Commissions Act says "if the President determines..an individual may be denoted as an "enemy combatant" and deprived of habeus corpus" . This includes AMERICAN CITIZENS..whether or not they are guilty..only if the "president' says they are. That sound like "law" to any of you? Who among you remembers Nixon..the Reagan Iran-Contra scandal? Who among you thinks the NeoCon/Nazi's would limit this use to "only" "trrsts.."

    4. The FBI has been yammering "the sky is falling..the sky is falling" for years since 2001. Loook back and research. ALL their past "threat" assessments have been WRONG! The fell for con men, for lies, for pure political expediency..NOTHING that caused a past threat elevation has been PROVEN to be TRUE. ALL LIES. Now ask yourself...WHY?

    5. Isn't it "odd" that the FBI..supposedly the Nations TOP lawmen..can't find the perpetrators of the Anthrax attack? You DO remeber the Anthrax attack right? The one targeted at the Democrats? That caused the evacuation of the Senate office building? That used US ARMY Anthrax? NOBODY has been held accountable for that attack? Ever wonder why'? Since it was US Govt Anthrax...don't you wonder...WHO..in t he US Govt got their hands on it and HOW did they GET AWAY WITH IT? Not tooo easy to stump the FBI is it???? Hmmmm

    6. Go Google Prescott Bush. Add "treason" if you want more/better results. Add "nazi" for even better results. Listen to the BBC radio program. Now...the BBC is not known for it's partisan reporting of American politics..so you have to ask yourself.... Is this true? And if so....why haven't we heard off this in America... Why indeed..... And look at What GW Bush has done. And doesn't it dovetail nicely with what someone who wanted a Dictatorship in America would have done?

    And finally..for those with McCarthyistic tendancies who blame the messenger for telling the truth....herre are some quotes from Americans that hopefully might show you that the Rule of Law is more important that lies and political expediency....

    Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice
    Moderation in the pursuit of justice is not virtue.

    -- Barry Goldwater

    "I hate war as only a soldier who has lived it can, only as one who has seen its brutality, its futility, its stupidity." Dwight D. Eisenhower

    '' Our country and our courts must always remain true to the core principles embodied in our United States Constitution, even in the aftermath of devastating attacks on our people and even in times of war.'' ..District Judge Robert S. Lasnik, Western District of Washington

    "It is error alone which needs the support of Government.
    Truth can stand by itself." -------Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia

    And finally... Pres Teddy Roosevelt

    "To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."

    --Republican President Theodore Roosevelt
     
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    #8 Chinasaur, Feb 22, 2008
  9. JFB

    JFB Gold Senior Member
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    Please keep this thread related to wireless telecom.
    Anything off that topic will have to be debated on another web site.
     
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    #9 JFB, Feb 22, 2008
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