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New HTC A9 phone

Discussion in 'GENERAL Wireless Discussion' started by viewfly, Oct 22, 2015.

  1. viewfly

    viewfly Mobile RF Advisor
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    Ah, I get it now. HTC is an abbreviation for High Tech Copy.
    A9? The name of Apples new chip?

    http://www.macrumors.com/2015/10/20/htc-one-a9-iphone-lookalike/

    [​IMG]





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  2. KevinJames

    KevinJames WA's 1st retired mod
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    @viewfly: There is a counter-argument on the web that Apple copied HTC's prior designs. Who knows, maybe HTC will get acquired by Apple and it will (finally) be Apple's own Android phone. LOL
     
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  3. viewfly

    viewfly Mobile RF Advisor
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    Unfortunately for them, HTC hasn't figured out how to copy Apples per phone profitability also.


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  4. viewfly

    viewfly Mobile RF Advisor
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    I was totally unaware that this was such a huge controversy! My OP has mainly to do with the A9 name ( like Samsung's S6 model, being similar to the Apple 6S), the shape and color choices in the metal body matching Apples, including the dual LED flash.

    My opinion, one that I expressed back in 2013, is that, to some degree each manufacturer copies, or evolves from each other. But the segmented external antenna that is part of the supporting metal unibody frame, is clearly in Apples court.

    It makes sense to borrow from the best designs, allowed to the legal limits, those elements that are most successful in the marketplace. (not even counting the ideas that are stolen before launch).

    However, the arguments that I'm reading today focus on the antenna lines and the plastic bands on the metal body that give segmentation to the antenna. Apple took all the flak beginning with the iPhone 4 for using the metal structure frame for the external antenna. Even after the 4S and 5 were introduced with external panels on the top and bottom for the bands.

    Everything from that point is an evolution of segmented bands that were part of the original iPhone 4 design revolution, by using the parts of the external metal frame for the antenna, parts that can be touched by the user. Unless HTC is willing to take the flak that Apple did, what we see here is just an evolution of Apple's bold design.

    So HTC has borrowed more from Apple than the other way around, IMO.

    And besides, one has iOS, and that's the true winner.


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    #4 viewfly, Oct 22, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2015
  5. M in LA

    M in LA Mobile 28 Years Plus
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    I've read from a couple of sites that HTC claims they came up with this design back in 2013, and that Apple copied them. Their other phones share similar design elements (even my Droid DNA shares it), but the A9 appears, to me anyway, to be an outright copycat, no matter what HTC says. For a company barfing up a lung lately and losing market share, this is the best they can offer? I love my DNA, but I'd like to kick HTC in the nads for this crap.

    If they want to kill the company, they've found the perfect phone to do it. I certainly won't ever consider an HTC phone again (as a secondary) if they keep it up.
     
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  6. JFB

    JFB Gold Senior Member
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  7. viewfly

    viewfly Mobile RF Advisor
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    Ha! HTC is already on the defense!

    Apple doesn't need to do any thing but be flattered. The first iPhone was all metal plus Corning glass screen ( another first). And the 4 model was the first for using the metal portion of the case as the antenna.

    HTC appears to be worried, if not legally, but seen in the public eye as a High Tech Copier

    They would be better off doing nothing, but perhaps they feel it's free publicity. I mean who even knew it was being launched a couple of days ago?

    For this A9 model hard to say your being copied when it's not being sold yet.

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    #7 viewfly, Oct 23, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2015
  8. dmapr

    dmapr Silver Senior Member
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    They are not talking about Apple copying the A9, they're talking about Apple copying the M7.
    [​IMG]

    It is clear the M7 antenna design is very similar, but the rest of the look is nowhere near as much.
     
  9. viewfly

    viewfly Mobile RF Advisor
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    oh, I understood that, dmapr.

    And why then is HTC not suing Apple? That would be big bucks for that company, and prestige as well, no?. Well there is a good reason they are not and why they are so nervous and defensive now. Unlike Samsung, HTC is small potatoes, and have been off of Apple's radar. Apple has been quiet, for a reason.

    The saying, 'Form follows Function', in design schools, fits here. And the RF engineering design that Apple displayed in 2010 is the driver, the rest window dressing and 'form'.

    And somewhere in these WA forums, around Feb 2013, when the M7 came out, I posted a comment saying that HTC, with all its criticism/mocking of the iPhone 4's 'AntennaGate', back in 2010, came out with a phone with the same engineering principals.

    HTC is quoted today as saying:

    Besides having a metal back in 2007 (with a plastic cover over the internal antenna). Apple introduced in 2010, 1) metal unibody construction, coupled with 2) an external metal antenna design as part of the unibody with the iPhone 4, and going forwards. And the 5 had metal back.

    There is nothing engineering new in the M7, nor A9, that is not covered in Apples iPhone 4 and the general patent that goes with it.

    There was a flaw in the 4, but it was fixed in the 4S. The iPhone 5 saw another unibody, with a metal back too, and top/bottom glass insulators for the metal antennas on the back.

    Moving the metal to the back top and sides, with a plastic insulator does not go outside of Apples original patent, from what I recall from memory.

    So after 3 years of seeing the elegance of Apple's bold innovation, HTC comes out with the M7. Very flattering, but based on Apple's experience, proof, and patents.

    The A9, is a bit too much over the top, however, in terms of looks, but I really don't care about that. Just something to laugh at. However the RF engineering risk and design was set back in 2010 by Apple. Without Apple's lead, (and egg on the face), there would have been NO M7. PERIOD.

    Anyone can chose to disagree with me, but this is how an RF design engineer would look at it. The cosmetic designer may have a different and superficial view of it.

    Here is the timeline: HTC m7 in Feb 2013 and the A9, just announced.

    [​IMG]


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  10. dmapr

    dmapr Silver Senior Member
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    There's a number of reasons HTC is not suing Apple. For starters, they don't have any spare cash for the lawyers ;) Second, I think this whole think is probably not enforceable. I mean it's basic physics that if you need multiple antennas that they can't really be touching each other with conductive parts. Neither Apple nor HTC can claim that as an invention :D
     
  11. viewfly

    viewfly Mobile RF Advisor
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    No, that is not true. It's RF engineering, not basic physics. Not enough space here to explain, nor convince you.

    But, either way, the patent exists, and it would cost a lot of dollars in the courts, which HTC doesn't have. and HTC's market share is not a real threat to Apple, to worry about. In fact, the M7 was a good affirmation for Apple, that showed consumers that it was an interesting idea: a unibody with touchable antenna's.

    Regardless, whether you believe that or not, the M7 is a copy of Apple's design, risk and field and product testing from at least 3 years prior.

    So HTC's claim, is bogus.



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  12. dmapr

    dmapr Silver Senior Member
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    Don't need to convince me :) Many years ago when I discovered that tying the radio antenna to the TV rabbit ears produces less than stellar results I haven't yet heard of RF engineering, so I just chalked it up to basic physics. The cell phones were a long way off at that point... If you say it's RF engineering then it's RF engineering but You're not suggesting that Apple has discovered that different metal antennas can't touch each other only in 2010, are you? :)
     
  13. viewfly

    viewfly Mobile RF Advisor
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    Not at all. From memory, it is mostly about specialized solutions to operating a very wide band of frequencies (all the cellular, wifi, BT RF send/receive) on a fixed length metal antenna(s), at high efficiency on all bands, and with influence of absorbing materials (i.e. hands) on that externally exposed band(s) of metal, and it's placement on the unibody structure. Impedance matching, efficiency, radiation patterns, etc are all of consideration.


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  14. KevinJames

    KevinJames WA's 1st retired mod
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    But we don't need to know all that because "it just works." LOL :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
     
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  15. viewfly

    viewfly Mobile RF Advisor
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    I think that is what HTC was hoping by copying Apple...

    Both in engineering and the marketplace.


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  16. M in LA

    M in LA Mobile 28 Years Plus
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    My foot is already in kicking position! I'm not irritated at HTC for copying Apple. It's because they're better than this, or at least they were. The Droid DNA is one of the most solid phones ever made. HTC made great phones, but now this is the best they can do? I can't believe they are THAT stupid!
     
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  17. palandri

    palandri Former Palm Guy
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  18. RadioRaiders

    RadioRaiders RF Black-Belt
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    To my eyes, they are both ugly o_O. Whoever made it first should be sued for making an ugly phone :p:D
     
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  19. KevinJames

    KevinJames WA's 1st retired mod
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    I agree. The retinal "shock and awe" was too much for these old eyes!

     
  20. viewfly

    viewfly Mobile RF Advisor
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    A bit of info.

    HTC and Apple ended their potential lawsuits with a 10yr utility cross license. Somewhere around 2012 or earlier. This may apply to the antenna finger pointing, on who did what and when. I

    What is in the details is not public, but it IS known that HTC had the weaker position. Apple pays NO money to HTC, but HTC pays a fee to Apple for each HTC phone sold, and a lump sum probably up front too. Apple Pays Nothing to HTC

    Basically it allowed HTC to survive, and a win-win for both, sort of.

    One concludes that Apple has the dominant patent position, and it is not even public knowledge if the cross license even involves antennas. But assuming it does, companies cross license, because perhaps there are bits and pieces they each need from each other, or avoid costly ligation. But if it's an unequal payment structure, as it is here, that means Apple had most of the propriety intellectual property, and first.


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  21. M in LA

    M in LA Mobile 28 Years Plus
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    So this explains why the HTC One Apple9, I mean A9, looks so much like an iPhone. The A9 is a nice phone, but not worthy of being a "flagship", IMO. It's too mid-level compared to flagship phones of the other major players. It's sad to see a once-great company like HTC fall to this level of mediocrity.
     
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  22. RadioRaiders

    RadioRaiders RF Black-Belt
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    I don't think HTC was ever that "great" of a company to start with. I was never impressed with their phones. The only HTC phone I had was the G1, and that was only because it was the first (or one of the first) Android phones on the market and I needed one to do some programming on.
     
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  23. M in LA

    M in LA Mobile 28 Years Plus
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    They've had some really good phones on Verizon, of which my Droid DNA is one of. It has been a great phone. That's what I go by.
     
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