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Microwave radiation GSM vs CDMA

Discussion in 'GENERAL Wireless Discussion' started by DrRoger, Apr 12, 2008.

  1. DrRoger

    DrRoger New Member

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    Hi,
    http://www.emfpollution.com/articles/cell-phones/cell-phone-radiation-exposure#nogo is a link to a site that states that GSM is more harmful to health than CDMA and claims that a next-generation CDMA ought to replace GSM worldwide. Apparently GSM puts out sharp bursts or pulses of microwaves as compared to CDMA which is more a continuous wave activity.

    I'd appreciate any other links; I've googled till I'm dizzy and can't seem to find much. As to the SAR levels of phones themselves, they seem to be of no use as they're all within the 1.6 level prescribed by the United States; some GSM phones seem to have less SAR levels than CDMA. Cell phone radiation chart - CNET reviews is a link to a list of SAR levels emitted by various phones, and is a nice introduction to the subject.

    And oh...I've read somewhere that GSM phones, unlike CDMA, are constantly connecting with the tower thereby exposing the owner to microwave RF radiation, whereas CDMA stay more in some kind of standby mode and so don't have the risk....anyone know the truth about this?

    Thanks,
    Roger
     
  2. markuhde

    markuhde Junior Member
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    Both types of phones stay in communication with the cell site. There are some truisms in this:

    1. 2G GSM is time-divided and therefore does put out sharp pulses of RF at a 217Hz cycle rate.

    2. CDMA type systems ABSOLUTELY REQUIRE that each handset is broadcasting at the lowest possible power level. If it's not the whole network will fall apart. GSM doesn't. However, GSM handsets will still control their output power as possible to save battery life.

    3. SAR on GSM handsets does have a general trend towards being lower than similarly designed CDMA handsets. However, depending on what you believe the real harm (if there is any...) is, the peaks are much greater than on CDMA due to the time divided nature.

    Finally, who cares? We're talking absolutely tiny levels of RF energy. Everything causes cancer these days. Why? Because everything, at one rate or another, affects everything else and eventually cancer cells do form. Does a tiny amount of RF energy have any statistical affect on cancer rates? You have to decide that for yourself, but I think you'll find it to be very unlikely.
     
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  3. Eric47

    Eric47 Bronze Senior Member
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    i sit by a wireless router putting of -30dbm of 2.437ghz throughout my house, im more worried about that then my phone.
     
  4. markuhde

    markuhde Junior Member
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    Okay, I'm separating this because what I wrote in the last post was before I read your article. Now I read it. I wanted to show you how much of their argument I could predict and I got most of it. Now for article-specific BS:

    "The newer American Code Domain Multiple Access (CDMA) system works differently and doesn't emit the sharp-edged low frequency magnetic pulses."

    CDMA means Code *DIVISION* Multiple Access and it doesn't have the pulses of RF, no. Low frequency magnetic pulses? I've never heard of such a thing.

    "The digital RF signal more resembles a noisy analogue signal and is also likely to be less bio-active."

    Umm, CDMA doesn't really resemble analogue either. The whole system does, sure, but not the output off one phone which is really spread out and weird, to say the least. Also on the less bio-active? Says who? References? Or pure BS?

    "Take an operating digital GSM mobile-phone near an ordinary medium wave radio and you will hear a buzzing noise."

    Good thing I'm not a radio

    "There is increasing pressure for Europe to replace the TDMA GSM system with a “third generation” CDMA system within the next ten years."

    Completely true. 3G GSM is CDMA based. BECAUSE IT IS MUCH MORE SPECTRUM EFFICIENT. The article is true, there is a lot of pressure from all around to go to a 3G CDMA-based system. Look at what T-Mobile users here have to say. Because people want the data speed!

    "As most practical engineers know, when trying to loosen a stuck nut and bolt, the effect of constant pressure on the spanner is FAR LESS than when tapping the spanner with a hammer."

    Ummm, that is completely unrelated physics. RF levels are simple transfers of heat energy. Not trying to break something apart.

    Finally, for one last big chunk of BS... "In addition, GSM digital phones and the new DECT cordless phones also both put high levels (several microtesla) of low frequency magnetic fields into the user’s head"

    I've never heard this so I did some quick research. A simple small iron magnet has a field of about 100 gauss, or 10 microtesla. So they're saying it puts out a magnetic field somewhat less than a little kid's toy magnet. I don't know if even this much is true, but if it is we better recall all those killer magnetic toys!
     
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  5. DrRoger

    DrRoger New Member

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    There are important bits of worrisome news like this: Cell Phones Increase the Risk of Two Types of Brain Tumor According to Study - Cancer Monthly

    and
    Microwave News ~ Home Page
     
  6. markuhde

    markuhde Junior Member
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    Wow. There are studies showing everything causes cancer. Recent studies a few years ago raised concerns about Ritalin, a stimulant drug that used to be prescribed to MANY kids to help control ADHD (it's basically been replaced by Adderall in most cases) showing it caused chromosome damage. But further, deeper studies revealed that just wasn't true.

    Saccharin had a warning label for many years based on it causing cancer in lab rats. Turns out any sodium salt would have caused the same thing at the doses given. Including plain old absolutely essential table salt (NaCl)

    Reality is that everything can affect chromosomes and can be manipulated into a shocking study. Our bodies can handle it and in fact, are designed to. I, for one, actually believe that moderate tanning under natural sunlight is actually good for us - yes, there are the health risks of skin cancer HOWEVER there are dramatic benefits as well both psychologically and physiologically.

    You're reading sensationalist journalism that sells newspapers, but has little factual accuracy.
     
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  7. DrRoger

    DrRoger New Member

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    Maybe. Agreed there are several studies that show cellphones don't cause health problems. But Dr. Khurana, the Australian neurosurgeon, is not going to make a fool of himself. Neurosurgeons, I know the breed, as I'm an Internist myself, are very sought after and don't need publicity. Looks like he really cares and is concerned.
    I am very nervous about the RF radiation from cellphones. So I always use a BT headset, and don't usually carry a cellphone on me. My car's audio system has BT so all incoming calls are heard and spoken on the car's audio. I plan to buy an HTC Touch in a week or two, and plan to put it in "flight mode" while I carry it on me during the day's work. Aside from all the phone #s on my Palm, I plan to use the drug database called Epocrates (PDA Medical Software. Medical & drug software for Palm & Windows PDAs) on it as well. Essentially, combining cell phone and Palm T3 into one device. A regular cell phone cannot be put into "flight mode" unfortunately. Maybe its time phone companies provided that option for all cell phones.
     
  8. markuhde

    markuhde Junior Member
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    LOL, you're very concerned about the RF from your cell phone so you use an RF based Bluetooth headset. THAT makes sense!

    As for flight mode, most phones have that option. It turns off the radio hence you can't receive or send calls. Rendering the point of carrying a phone nil, it becomes a PDA device or music player only.

    Even if he wasn't bought off, being a neurosurgeon does not make you an expert on the biological effects of RF energy. They're completely different specialties, and I would be very surprised if the vast majority of neurosurgeons don't strongly disagree with that opinion.

    Again, I don't doubt that RF energy affects the human body at all. Heck, in large quantities we know it does - it will cook you to death! The question is if it affects the body in a way the body doesn't naturally repair. And more specifically, if it causes cancer.

    If there is a biological effect at low levels, I'd say it would be much more likely to be central nervous system function related than carcinogenic. Afterall, the CNS is an electrical system. I'm also not entirely sure such an effect would actually be negative. For all we know pulsed RF energy could actually act as a stimulant!

    I'd be much more interested in studies of how the brain functions with RF signals in the background vs without them - test scores, reaction times, etc. I think it's far more likely we'd find some real meaningful data there than hunting for cancer, which seems highly unlikely.
     
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  9. RadioRaiders

    RadioRaiders RF Black-Belt
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    Well said markuhde. RF is all around, theres no hiding from it. Even the computer monitor you're reading this on and the electric wires themselves are emitting tiny pulses of RF at you! You can run but you can't hide. And anyway, even cave-dwellers with no radios or electricity will die anyway ;)

    I stopped reading there. "Newer" and "American" means they are selling something. It's the old "CDMA vs. GSM" again. It's not about the miniscule amounts of radiation. :rolleyes:
     
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  10. andy6432668

    andy6432668 Member

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    You will get more rf radiation from a nerby radio or tv station than you will ever get from your phone !!!
     
  11. markuhde

    markuhde Junior Member
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    Let's use reality andy, unless you live right in the peak of the broadcast pattern that's almost certainly not true because of a physics principle known as inverse square law
     
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  12. DrRoger

    DrRoger New Member

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    I believe that the RF from bluetooth is perhaps a hundredth of that put out by a cellphone, as bt only has a range of 20 feet, as compared to a cellphone that has to reach a mile or more......
    Roger
     
  13. markuhde

    markuhde Junior Member
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    Oh no doubt your exposure level from a Bluetooth headset is dramatically less than from a mobile phone handset. That was more just a "think about this" comment than anything. I notice you had no reply to the much bigger and more important rebuttal portions of my message.

    Enough said. Fear, uncertainty, and doubt are king with a certain group of people, but I refuse to allow them to be with me. I know enough to have a good idea what to worry about. And RF exposure isn't it. There are too many real dangers...
     
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  14. DrRoger

    DrRoger New Member

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    Ah, well. So you're smug in your complacency about the RF hazards of cellphones. Fine. As for me and my family, they all take great care to
    1. minimize the actual use to less than 10 minutes a day. Whenever possible reach for a landline phone and not a cell.
    2. carry the phone turned off. Check voicemail 2-3 times a day from a landline, or preferably don't have a voicemail on it.
    3. When on keep it about 3 feet or more away from your person
    4. Use a wired or BT headset while talking.
    5. Get a CDMA service (our family all use VZ) rather than GSM

    With that I'll bow out of this thread!!
     
  15. markuhde

    markuhde Junior Member
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    So basically, you came here to spread fear, uncertainty, and doubt and when you realize you don't have a receptive community to such B.S. you leave. Okey-dokey.

    I'm glad you think voicemail is a health hazard. Oh, and just so you know the phone checking in with the network is a VERY very low exposure. It's a few packets every few minutes to check in. That's all.

    I hope you never use those little FRS/GMRS walkie-talkies. The RF exposure from those is *far* greater than from a mobile phone! Of course, no one ever mentions that fact (some of those guys are over 1 watt on GMRS bands, vs 200mW MAX on a phone (usually much lower unless the signal is weak).

    BTW, your landline phone will expose you to RF as well. In fact, a modern landline phone can have just as much power output as your cell phone will when it's in a good signal area.
     
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  16. KyleAndMelissa22

    KyleAndMelissa22 Woot Woot, Splat !!!
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    What? 10 minutes a day? Impossible for most phone users out there.
    My average call length is about 40 minutes.
    Besides as of I think last year more than 50% of people who use the phone use their cell phone,
    and a big majority have ditched expensive landline service, so lots of people only own cell phones now,
    and wireless is now actually more affordable than landline.

    Something I've never done in the 1½ years I've owned my phone.
    I've used over 10,000 minutes on my phone this month alone! ;) Average is about 8,000.
    I never turn my phone off, and it's always plugged in and fully charged.
    Also I've disabled my Alltel Voicemail like 90% of the time, because I rarely use it.
    (*780 to disable, *78 to enable voicemail) on Alltel phones

    How would you ever send/receive texts, dial numbers, stay in touch, etc., :)
    Don't be scared of your phone, it doesn't have teeth, it can't bite you!


    You mean while driving (you'd still be within 3 feet of the phone).
    I used to have a wired headset, but I never used it and gave it to someone else, who also stopped using it.

    Doesn't matter, they still require power to work,
    and they transmit on higher frequencies than cell phones (about 2.45 ghz) just like your microwave oven!

    Oh, and by the way, Bluetooth headsets give off decent amounts of RF energy as well,
    so in your case you might want to stay away from them too ;)
    Some of my family members wear their bluetooth like glasses, they never take them off,
    and they're constantly on with that blue light blinking all day long.

    This one I agree with, but not because of RF energy,
    but because the US has much more CDMA coverage & carriers than GSM,
    and is much more efficient (supports more users per cell site).
    The actual RF amounts given off by GSM vs CDMA is too close too call in the long run.
     
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  17. markuhde

    markuhde Junior Member
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    I'll be fair and balanced. Bluetooth headsets are VERY low power (far lower than 2.4GHz cordless phones or WLAN equipment). Also regarding "The actual RF amounts given off by GSM vs CDMA is too close too call in the long run."

    Nobody argues that GSM puts out more RF. They argue it's peaks are higher which is true, it's time divided so it pulses with the time of the signal. They argue this is like hammering on cells with RF instead of gently pressing on them with a steady force. This would be true if tiny amounts of RF were going to somehow "break" cells. This isn't true. RF's only effect is a heating effect (the addition of energy) therefore average power levels is all that counts. Like AC power lighting a lightbulb... AC cycles to very high and low (negative) peaks but all that counts is the average voltage (root-mean-square voltage as it's called) of 120 or 240V.

    Energy added to a system and forces applied to an object are not the same.
     
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  18. Jerro

    Jerro Bronze Senior Member
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    If your are referring to cell biology as opposed to (radio) electromagnetic's when you mention breaking a cell then may I add that it is not necessary to bust a cell wall to casue chromosomal changes. Although, natural radiation can do the same. Ask an Astronaut or for that matter a pilot or flight attendant. Additionally, the on and off feature of radiation can exhibit a different effect than a steady state. This is a useful concept in therapeutic and diagnostic electronics.
     
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  19. markuhde

    markuhde Junior Member
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    You're talking about a different kind of radiation called ionizing radiation. Which is what you get exposed to as an astronaut or flight attendant or in medical imaging. It does cause chromosomal damage and create cell damage and the like. Ionizing radiation is higher than UV on the electromagnetic spectrum and has far MORE energy and a shorter wave length than visible light.

    RF energy is on the other end of the scale, it has a far far far longer wavelength than visible light and far less energy. You can't compare the two at all.
     
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  20. Jerro

    Jerro Bronze Senior Member
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    Thank you for mentioning that, of course. However, all the radiation that comes in from the cosmos is not only ionizing, it is from the entire spectrum including RF. Also; not all diagnostic is ionizing, think fMRI, ultrasound and more. Of course there are RF ablation and treatment modalities as well.

    I understand what you and others are saying about the low power being less harmful, that sounds logical; to a degree. My point is that the nature of the energy may be as important as the power. For instance there were cases where Cops using radar guns got testicular cancers from holding the idling radar gun (at low power) on their lap.

    By the way; I use my CDMA phones a lot and mostly without a headset.
     
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  21. markuhde

    markuhde Junior Member
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    You know the cops getting cancer from their RADAR guns thing is a myth, right?
     
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  22. Jerro

    Jerro Bronze Senior Member
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    You know that the myth is a myth, right? There is an old Workers Comp. case here. The Cop won. Not all those rumor checker sites cover all bases and all cases.

    Anyway, we have strayed off topic from phones. Therefore regarding the original topic; My position is that, I know that I do not know.
     
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    #22 Jerro, Apr 14, 2008
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2008
  23. Eric47

    Eric47 Bronze Senior Member
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    yea, in Virginia, radar guns are mounted outside of the car....
     
  24. Jerro

    Jerro Bronze Senior Member
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    Then perhaps GSM phones should be so mounted.:rolleyes:
     
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  25. KyleAndMelissa22

    KyleAndMelissa22 Woot Woot, Splat !!!
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    and in Virginia, radar detection is illegal,
    Thats ok, I have my police scanner with me alot, or are those outlawed in VA too...;)
    I drive through VA somewhat often, about every few months.
     
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  26. Eric47

    Eric47 Bronze Senior Member
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    dunno. that probably gives you cancer tho :)
     
  27. KyleAndMelissa22

    KyleAndMelissa22 Woot Woot, Splat !!!
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    Maybe so, it's a just receiver that I bought at Radio Shack, takes 4 AA batteries and it lasts a few months.

    But I guess I have a better chance of getting cancer from a tall cell tower about 1,000 feet from my house.

    Look at this pic of an AT&T & SunCom tower just behind my house...that's pretty close!

    [​IMG]
     
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  28. Eric47

    Eric47 Bronze Senior Member
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    haha. wow that is close! time for you to make a tin foil helmet!
     
  29. markuhde

    markuhde Junior Member
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    Because of inverse square law, combined with the attenuation of the building materials in the house the RF levels even when you're right by the tower are very very minimal and far lower than what your handset exposes you to - and due to power control, your handset will broadcast at a much lower power now.
     
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  30. RadioFoneGuy

    RadioFoneGuy Powered by HTC FUZE
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    If you look at K&M's profile that tower doesnt have Alltel on it.

    You could talk about RF till your blue in the face. Fact is that there so much radiation out there its crazy. Think about when your on AM radio and your picking up a station from 2 states over.
    You have HF, VLF and LF Skip Talk (sky wave) theres also tropo scatter systems.

    IF you could physically see RF if would be so hazy outside similar to fog.

    GSM vs CDMA power output discussions have been thrown around since the early 90's when they compared GSM to TDMA then in Mid to Late 90's when CDMA came into play.

    I would imagine even thou the handset power is less than half a watt that the Iden system would be the strongest of all. The Iden system has a higher tower ERP plus using larger spectrum allocation for control and talk channels.

    Id be more concerned with the radiation emitted from Microwave Ovens (magnetron) and poorly shield electronics like some TVs, Stereo tuners, computer power supplies etc.

    Speaking of Microwave radiation, I had a microwave burn a hole in its wave guide and start to melt the microwaves plastic parts. The waveguide was dented during manufacture and made the worst damn noice(sounded like frankensteins lab electric noise) and all around the magnetron it was black.
     

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