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Merger's.. Next Year? Cingular with AT&T/T Mobile??? Sprint with Verizon??? Everyone wants Nextel!!?

Discussion in 'GENERAL Wireless Discussion' started by Guest, Oct 9, 2002.

  1. aiwapro

    aiwapro Silver Senior Member
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    But Cingular bought all of those customers. They didn't acquire those customers through advertising and so on, like eveyrone else does. Cingular is just the joining of other wireless providers together. That's why they have all of those customers. It's the same situation with Verizon. They just bought all of their customers.

    T-Mobile really wouldn't benefit on the deal nearly as much as Cingular would.
     
  2. Guest

    Guest Guest

    with the 'merger' there would'nt really be a t mobile, Im not even sure a cingular, or even at&t gsm(!)... But one company.. Whether or not they keep the Cingular name, I dunno... But I do know this: Everyone would benefiet...[​IMG]
     
  3. cryogenic

    cryogenic Bronze Senior Member
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    Chris, get off your frickin high-horse over T-mobile... They're guilty of buying just as many customers as ANY OTHER wireless provider, you know. Quite a few of their markets were not orignal VS markets, they were once serviced by other providers that now are part of T-mobile... You act as though T-mobile has not bought ANY of their network and they've built it from the ground up, which is simply not true. I don't see any big deal with a larger wireless company buying a smaller one in order to expand into new markets... It's obviously more cost effective than buying the licenses and building out the entire network... Anyway, as far as markets VS has bought... here's a list that I've found recently:

    Former Omnipoint - CT/MA/ME/NH/RI/Philadelphia/New York City/Syracuse/NJ/Miami/Indianapolis/MD/Detroit

    Former Powertel - AL/Atlanta/Jacksonville FL/Memphis/Nashville/Louisville/Lexington

    Former Aerial - Houston/Tampa FL/Pittsburgh/Columbus OH/Minneapolis/Orlando

    Former PCS One - Harrisburg/Carlisle/Lancaster/Ephrata PA

    Former DigiPH - Mobile AL/Hattiesburg/Laurel/Biloxi/Gulfport/Pascagoula MS/ Pensacola/Ft. Walton Beach FL

    Former SOL PCS - South Texas - Brownsville McAllen etc.

    So that's 6 other carriers VS/T-mo have purchased in order to increase their service area and gain customers... How does this make them any different than Verizon or Cingular?
     
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  4. aiwapro

    aiwapro Silver Senior Member
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    It's not the same. You know what I mean.
     
  5. Dukedog

    Dukedog Senior Member
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    How is it not the same, They are not Sprint Pcs (Who's the only carrier to Build it out from the start).
     
  6. aiwapro

    aiwapro Silver Senior Member
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    I can't explain, but my friend Matt can explain it better.

    What has Verizon built? What actual market has Verizon built that wasn't already there?

    What has Cingular built? What actual market has Cingular built that wasn't already there?

    The answer to both questions is no much, as the towers and other various hardware was already there. The customers were already there. That's what I'm talking about. For one example, though T-Mobile has built many markets from the ground up, Cleveland is a prime and most recent example. T-Mobile built the whole Cleveland, OH and sorrounding area from the ground up, with over 300 towers. That's what I'm talking about.
     
  7. Dukedog

    Dukedog Senior Member
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    What's your point?
     
  8. Matt

    Matt Twin girls!
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    I think Chris' point is that Cingular (and maybe Verizon) is a conglomeration of many companies as opposed to TM which is "one company" that bought all the others. One big fish eating the little fish as opposed to many similar sized fish becoming one.

    IMHO, as far as the markets go, T-M is not as guilty as some others, as the last three companies cryogenic notes only operated in one or a few markets. It's easier to go the T-M route as all the back end integration is faster and simpler. T-M, for example, has had one billing system since late 2000. AFAIK neither Cingular nor Verizon have that today, but I could be wrong [​IMG] TM is more of a pure play I suppose....theoretically it should function more smoothly behind the scenes...
     
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  9. PCSTech

    PCSTech New Member

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    Considering Verizon and Cingular were formed from a combination of companies that's not a viable question.

    Out here in CA they haven't built jack, they're piggybacking on Cingular. So if Cingular sucks, so will T-mobile. There is no way you are going to group T-mobile in with Sprint PCS, which as mentioned is really the only provider to build nation-wide from the ground up.
     
  10. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I don't bother speculating about T-Mobile since they are a wild card in the merger game at this point. The only merger I see taking place is Verizon & Sprint if the regulators allow it. Otherwise I can see Verizon Communications initialing a hostile takeover of PCS in the near future. Follow some stock statistics and you will see that what I am saying makes sense from a financial perspective.

    Right now Sprint PCS is one of the most heavily shorted low-priced, high-beta, low-valuation stocks in the S&P 500 Index. What this means is that any fund manager worth his salary would dump this stock. Most professional fund managers, are prohibited from owning stocks priced at $5 or less. Yet the S&P 500, the single-largest equity-investment vehicle in the world, currently allows 2 money-losers like PCS, which was added to the index near its all-time high. What does this mean as far as mergers go? The only way PCS is getting out of whole is by way of speculative investments or hype. IE something good happening pretty quickly. According to the S&P regulations and stock valued under $2.00 is subject to delisting. Here are some solid financials on the companies everybody loves or hates. Bottom line for these PCS, its only gonna get worse.

    Symbol Company 10/11 close % chgYTD 12-month income
    PCS Sprint PCS Group $2.22 -90.9 -927 million


    What does this all mean in terms of mergers or takeovers? It all depends on the buying company's ability to get into the other's stock before it starts to move and hence make money while taking it over. This is why Verizon is in prime position to take Sprint over. For starters Verizon at this time is not short of cash like Sprint and Verizon's stock has already seen bottom and is starting to recover slowly but surely. With Sprint's current position they cannot afford to buy back their own stock and hence, prevent a takeover. The financials speak for themselves on this issue.

    Symbol Company Beta Price/sales ratio 10/11 Short interest ratio
    PCS Sprint PCS Group 2.95 0.2 $2.22 23


    Bottom line here guys is that barring a major miracle you will no longer see Sprint around by Fall of 2003. The writing is on the wall its just a matter of how these 2 companies decide how its gonna happen. It can be friendly or hostile, but Verizon is gonna come out on top either way. Perhaps Sprint's next commercial should state: "Sprint PCS, The Clear Alternative to Cellular, too bad we won't be around in 9 months"
     
  11. Dukedog

    Dukedog Senior Member
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    Cingular might be form from multiple companys, and they will be adding one more, when they add T-mobile.
     
  12. Guest

    Guest Guest

    People also seem to forget the AT&T GSM would merge with Cingular as well... It's no secret that Broadband has been losing money on the wireless end. & I really dont think they know how to market it. In the recent past AT&T has spoken to Cingular about possabilites of this happening, now T Mobile as well? If this were to happen, I think that Verizon would be blown away. Just the fact that Cingular would be aquiring T Mobile would rival Verizon. Also, while thery are similar, Sprint and Verizon are two very different companies, & I dont feel Verizon would obtain Sprint. I dont think they'd need to feel to. Verizon view on technology is a real basic one. Sprint is always looking to improve. Cingular is looking to expand GSM across the US, & Verizon just wants more customers. I honestly feel that the big three would be Cingular, Sprint & Verizon. Also, Nextel, the iDen company is widely used by big businesses. I think they'd still be around as well... By who, Im not sure....
     
  13. Guest

    Guest Guest

     
  14. aiwapro

    aiwapro Silver Senior Member
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    That is exactly my point. They are a combination of companies. T-Mobile is one company, and so is Sprint PCS.

    T-Mobile U.S. isn't going anywhere. They are staying with DT. All of the stupid articles said it would be sold by August, then September, and then October. Ummm, it's still not sold. It's still with DT, and that's the way it will always be.
     
  15. Kenny

    Kenny Senior Member
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    Ah the one article I had posted a while back on this forum and the alt.cellular.xxx forums was correct in saying that there were mounting pressures on the DT CEO to be booted out or forced to resign. Many people denied such allegations as news gossip....well looked what happened not too long ago!

    You can't deny the possibilities of DT cutting T-mobile US loose -- there have been discussions between DT/T-mobile with Cingular and AT&T about merger possibilities.

    T-mobile is indeed a good carrier and has vastly swept the markets recently especially in the low-end younger crowd. Despite anyone's love for T-mobile, if you step back and look at the bigger picture you will realize that a merger with another GSM partner could very well be a viable option considering the gigantic and monumental amounts of money it would take to expand coverage whilst at the same time move to next generation services offered by EDGE and WCDMA. It is damn expensive to implement WCDMA -- a major network upgrade! Do they want to fight it alone or leverage the economies of scale by merging with say Cingular or AT&T. The other side of the coin also holds true -- there is plenty to gain for Cingular or AT&T to gobble up T-mobile USA.
     
  16. aiwapro

    aiwapro Silver Senior Member
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    That wasn't really just a rumor that the DT CEO was going to be fired or resign. That was almost like a fact. The people who worked there said he was going to resign, and he even mentioned it himself. There was no suprise there.

    I know it's expensive to do such a large network upgrade, but you should look at it from the other point of view and T-Mobile should look at it from the point of view too; Look, it will cost AT&T and Cingular even more to do such a network upgrade, because they haven't even finished with their TDMA to GSM upgrade. They are both years behind T-Mobile. That's why T-Mobile should do the upgrade on their own, and leave their other GSM competition in the dusk, and you never know, maybe they themselves will run out of money, and have to collapse on the shoulders of T-Mobile, instead of it kinda being the other way around. I look at it this way, if you want to win, eliminate your competition. I sell cellphones, and that's exactly what I do, set my prices so that the competition will struggle and barely make a dime to compete with me.
     
  17. Dukedog

    Dukedog Senior Member
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    Chris that's got to be the craziest thing I ever heard, for one it is very expensive to upgrade to EDGE and W-CDMA (especially for T-mobile who's owners already have alot of debt right now). Secondly, you don't know if all the upgrades to high speed network would ever turn profit for the carriers.
     
  18. Matt

    Matt Twin girls!
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    Kenny - actually T-Mobile has better economy of scale considerations right now. T-Mobile USA is part of a 67 million GSM customer worldwide network and T-Mobile Germany is already installing WCDMA. A T-Mobile/Cingular (or ATT) combination would be less than half that.
     
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  19. aiwapro

    aiwapro Silver Senior Member
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    I never said it wasn't expensive, in fact I said it IS expensive. I never mentioned anything about it turning profit or not either. It doesn't matter if they think it's going to turn profit or not. They still have to upgrade.
     
  20. Dukedog

    Dukedog Senior Member
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    I didn't say you mention about profits, it was I who said you don't know if they would turn profit for the carrier.
     
  21. IdiOTeQnoLogY

    IdiOTeQnoLogY Bronze Senior Member
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    as matt pointed out in another thread SprintPCS stock is just a tracking stock. you cant do a hostile takeover


     
  22. aiwapro

    aiwapro Silver Senior Member
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    Well like I said, it still doesn't matter if they think it will turn a profit or not; They still have to do the upgrade.
     
  23. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Chris/Aiwapro...
    You have been totaly against this from the begining. & Why? So what if T Mobile gets owned by Cingular. It's really no big deal. I've scoped out this thread and you have thrown every possible angle to thwart this. Dig this: If this where to happen, it would produce a bigger network, more coverage, and result in happier cutomers. I dont understand why your so against this.
    In the past similar threads have caused much debate, but it seems this one is causing much more as the big 3 may be a reality... Aiwa did you read the other big 3 thread concerning the major carriers quality? T Mobile ranked low. Verizon and Cingular ranked high, thus this would be a plus to T Mobile if they were to join with Cingular. Sprint with Verizon, etc.
    Chris you need to get over this, bro. Look to the future. Your a smart person. Dont make yourself look so silly.
     
  24. aiwapro

    aiwapro Silver Senior Member
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    Everything you just said is WRONG. It won't give bigger coverage, because T-Mobile is GSM, and Cingular barely has any GSM, so that's why they roam off of T-Mobile in 46 of the 50 states. It would just cost more and more money for them to be converting Cingular's TDMA into GSM, and they don't need that extra expense, as they have enough of their own.
    It wouldn't result in too many more happier customers. GSM is the thing we're talking about here, and we saw how Cingular took care of their Cali market (GSM), and we saw how many happy customers they had, LOL.
    Who cares about rankings? T-Mobile doens't care that much about rankings; It's not affecting their sales any. T-Mobile is bringing in over 500,000 customers per quarter, and expecting almost 1 million or more this past 3rd quarter.
     
  25. pfp

    pfp Senior Member
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    Give up on getting Aiwa off of T-Mobile. The following is an example of what would happen if T-Mobile were to be bought out or merge:

    Subject: Save the best Wireless Provider out there

    I, Chris *****, would like to make a proposal to the members of the wireless community. As you are all aware, T-Mobile, the greatest provider ever to grace us with it's precence, has become a part of Cingular (AT&T, etc.) I feel that we cannot stand for this injustice.

    I am seeking investors to help rescue T-Mobile from certain death in the hands of those who don't understand the power that they have by owning it. T-Mobile was bought from DT for $xxx,xxx.xx. If that amount can be doubled before the merger has actually had effects in terms of implementation, then I believe the purchasing company would be willing to release it.

    So I'm asking you, the wireless community, to buy shares of the new T-Mobile, which will be owned and operated by us, the people who, when it was under DT, it served better than any other Wireless Provider. This is a worthwhile cause, for together we can keep T-Mobile as the best Wireless Provider out there.

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  26. aiwapro

    aiwapro Silver Senior Member
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    BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

    I just hate not funny jokes don't you guys.
     
  27. pfp

    pfp Senior Member
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    Maybe I'm just spending too much time in a store we should close because it's in a mall that's falling to nothingness (Irondequoit Mall, for any upstate-NYers for some reason reading the Western forum), but I personally thought it was quite funny. [​IMG] Besides, you talk enough smack, you can take a little.


    In all seriousness, this is my view of the T-Mobile/Cingular fiasco:

    The merger, a simple breakdown of needs, why's, and where the money is:

    Does T-Mobile need Cingular:
    Probably not.

    Would it be more worthwhile for DT to keep T-Mobile USA and put it's profits towards debts instead of selling all or part of it:
    MAYBE.

    Does Cingular need T-Mobile?
    No, but it would speed up their GSM switchover immensely.

    Whether or not Cingular actually needs T-Mobile, have the corporate suits in Cingular decided they need T-Mobile?
    Quite possibly, but I don't know because I'm not a suit.


    Here's the clincher:

    If aforementioned suits did decide they needed T-Mobile, could they afford to make an offer that DT just couldn't refuse in order to buy out a chunk or all of T-Mobile from them?
    I'd bet on it. If Cingular has decided it wants T-Mobile, they'll have it, as long as DT is willing to remotely consider letting it go.
    If DT isn't considering letting it go, yet Cingular decides it needs it, that's where things'll become interesting.




    Figured I'd break it down to how I see it, and probably get yelled at by 5 people about how I'm wrong [​IMG]...

    It's overly simple, but the real question is: Does Cingular both need it enough and have the money to make DT an offer they can't refuse...

    P[​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
     
  28. Kenny

    Kenny Senior Member
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    Matt, while it is true what you have mentioned I still am uncertain if that is applicable. Yes T-mobile USA is a part of a big 67 million T-mobile customer base but T-mobile USA is in some sense a separate entity in the US. Just because T-mobile USA has a big European GSM base (which offers some economies of scale) it doesn't necessarily mean it's directly applicable to the economies of scale within the US - infrastructure-wise....I'm not talking about GSM handsets. The question to consider is this, what is the best way for T-mobile USA to provide economies of scale within the US as soon as possible without breaking the bank?

    For example, say GM is the largest US car maker here -- well if GM has a presence in Europe, they may consider forging partnerships or mergers (in their european unit) to expand their growth in Europe. Just because GM has a huge North American market doesn't mean that they can leverage that economies of scale alone in Europe.
     
  29. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Enough already! This is getting F*!@#ing old.
     
  30. IdiOTeQnoLogY

    IdiOTeQnoLogY Bronze Senior Member
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    CAN SOMEONE SAY DAIMLER-CHRYSLER?
     

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