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From Apples to Droids

Discussion in 'GENERAL Wireless Discussion' started by dmapr, Sep 2, 2016.

  1. dmapr

    dmapr Silver Senior Member
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  2. palandri

    palandri Former Palm Guy
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    He'll soon learn that if you drop any phone without a case and it hits at the right angle the screen will break. Since I work construction, I see it happen all the time.
     
  3. dmapr

    dmapr Silver Senior Member
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    I don't doubt that, although it is possible that the iPhone is in general tuned more into scratch resistance than shatter resistance.

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  4. charlyee

    charlyee Ultimate Insanity
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    My 6s is more prone to scratches than any of my previous iPhone's were.

    I don't know if that means it is more shatter resistant than it's predecessors but I am not about to try to find out. :D


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  5. viewfly

    viewfly Mobile RF Advisor
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    My current 6 and 6S has zero glass scratches on them, and I've been using the least protective cases ever. It's pristine for the year that I've had the 6s.

    I always carry it in my pants pocket.


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  6. charlyee

    charlyee Ultimate Insanity
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    My 6 had zero scratches after a year, unfortunately I cannot say the same about my 6s.


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  7. viewfly

    viewfly Mobile RF Advisor
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    That article seems like a paid plant from Samsung.

    The author never heard of the'All Photos' album?

    Something is off with his knowledge. Seems most people enjoy the iPhone battery life, if you compare the same sized phones.

    The other complaints are oh hum.


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  8. palandri

    palandri Former Palm Guy
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    Wow, I wonder what happened between the 6 and the 6S?
     
  9. RadioRaiders

    RadioRaiders RF Black-Belt
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    Could be anything. Maybe different materials, supplier, design, etc. Companies aren't always consistent. I've had many HP laptops, some were good, some were duds, some were made in Europe, some in China, ... A brand name doesn't always mean you will get the same thing all the time....
     
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  10. charlyee

    charlyee Ultimate Insanity
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    Rumor has it that it is a different Gorilla Glass that is less susceptible to cracking.

    So I guess it is not possible to have resistance to cracking and scratching at the same time.


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  11. viewfly

    viewfly Mobile RF Advisor
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    Maybe nothing has changed? A quick Google search for ' is the iPhone 6s more prone to scratches than the 6' returns: iPhone 6 scratches more easily than other models. That's the 6 not 6S.

    Small samples sizes. I've noticed no change, Charlyee has. So that negates a conclusion from that data set.

    I don't think there is anything here, from what I've seen or heard.

    PS: @charlyee are the scratches in the glass or glass oleophobic coating?


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  12. charlyee

    charlyee Ultimate Insanity
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    Vf, I am pretty sure the scratches (actually there is only one) are in the glass.

    I know of one other person that has the same issue in fact his are worse, other than that I haven't taken any samples.

    There is a remote possibility that glass change happened starting with the 6 but I got lucky.


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  13. viewfly

    viewfly Mobile RF Advisor
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    So where did this info come from that the 6S glass is different than the 6?


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  14. charlyee

    charlyee Ultimate Insanity
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  15. palandri

    palandri Former Palm Guy
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    I thought I read that iPhone switched from Sapphire glass to Gorilla glass due to Sapphire glass being 10X more expensive, or something like that.
     
  16. viewfly

    viewfly Mobile RF Advisor
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    @charlyee. I'm a 'doubting Thomas' on this one. I see reports all over the map; there is no large consistency. Some say the 6S is better, some say the opposite, and like me, some see no difference. No large vector in either direction.

    Actually for me, I've used some of the least protective cases in my iPhone career. No scratches, glass is pristine. It is not likely that any material strengthening would make the cover glass less hard than regular glass, which is harder than metal.

    @palandri. No iPhone ever had sapphire. Only on the camera lens and fingerprint sensor.


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  17. palandri

    palandri Former Palm Guy
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    So that's what it was :) I thought it was about the main screen. I guess I never read iPhone articles closely
     
  18. dmapr

    dmapr Silver Senior Member
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    There were rumors aplenty before the release, could've read those.

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  19. JWA

    JWA New Member

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    From Apple: http://www.apple.com/iphone-6s/design/

    This ionization wasn't done one previous iPhones. It's intended to make them more shatter resistant, but appears (at least to me) to make them easier to scratch.

    Both my wife and I have owned every iPhone (other than the 5S) since launch day of the iPhone 1 and neither of us have ever used screen protectors or sleeve type cases. However, I noticed after having my iPhone 6S for two weeks that it had picked up a number of hairline scratches. It has only gotten worse, and my wife's also has a fair amount now.

    I'm tempted to skip the iPhone 7 (or whatever this 2016 model will be called) based on the rumored specs, but I'm afraid that if I did the screen condition on these 6S's after another year would make them worthless. So, based on the screen scratching easier it will probably cost me the same to upgrade versus skip a year.
     
  20. viewfly

    viewfly Mobile RF Advisor
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    Scratch resistance and shatter resistance go hand in hand, not the opposite, from glass material science. So I'm not buying into these theories. They don't connect with the science.

    When a scratch occurs on glass like material, it become a weak point, allowing the glass to break more easily, and thereby reducing its 'Strength ' or resistance to breakage. Think of how one cuts glass or those high school pipettes...scratch a line and bend the glass and it breaks. It's done not just to make a 'clean' cut, but to allow it to break too.

    So in making a glass stronger, one needs to prevent scratches. It is one of the reasons why sapphire is 10 times more stronger than Quartz...it is also highly scratch resistance, or a harder material. Scratch sapphire, and it weaken immensely, the scratch area becomes a fault line.

    I think the observational data is just random points and doesn't point to a less scratch resistance iPhone glass (due to higher breakage resistance) when looked into as a group.

    Undoubtedly the iPhone 6s glass is different, but ionization is the process of all of Corning's stronger glasses used in smartphones. That is not unique. The detail process may have changed.

    But if it is scratching easier, then it will break sooner too. So maybe take advantage of an iPhone 7 upgrade, just to get a new, scratch free glass.




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  21. JWA

    JWA New Member

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    That is true for a classic crystalline glass structure, but the modern glass alloys like Gorilla Glass are "metal glass" that are closer to plastics. Think Pyrex beakers or Corelle plates. They can be made more malleable to reduce shatter resistance and make them less prone to cracks from stress points (scratches), and at the same time that can give them a surface that scratches easier. Think of an aluminum can. Easy to scratch but very hard to crack. The GG spec we're at now is somewhere along that spectrum of material properties. We're also talking about very superficial defects as related to the overall thickness of the glass surface and its bonded stack height with the other layers of the display.
     
  22. JWA

    JWA New Member

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    For some data, refer to this Corning data sheet on GG5: http://www.corning.com/microsites/csm/gorillaglass/PI_Sheets/Corning Gorilla Glass 5 PI Sheet.pdf

    Notice that while it is much more resistant to cracking it only matched GG4 in scratch resistance - but with a ~40% higher standard deviation. So even Corning's data shows that you are more likely to get incidental scratches in GG5 than GG4 - and that the material can be made much tougher without a corresponding increase in scratch resistance.
     
  23. viewfly

    viewfly Mobile RF Advisor
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    No, that is not correct. Glass, including Gorilla Glass is an amphorous solid, which means it is not a organized crystal structure. Glasses made from aluminosilicate materials is not new at all, nor is the ion exchange process.

    The Corning data sheets actually show that the various generations of GG scratch performance have not changed much, and even improved from the GG3 specifications.

    Small variations in standard deviations in scratch tests with Quartz sandpaper does not mean that the scratch resistance of GG has been lowered to a point that materials like metals, etc are going to scratch it. The change is insignificant to be a reason for the supposedly reduction in scratch resistance for this material.

    These materials, no matter how more resistance to shattering or bending or deep abrasion, will still be weakened by pits and surface scratches over time. And Corning has not lowered the scratch resistance by any significant order; in fact, not really at all.

    Corning states it quite clearly in the data sheets; "Similar scratch resistance to previous GG'. The photos on the Garnet, Taber and Tumble test show that.


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  24. JWA

    JWA New Member

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    Correct, glass is an amorphous solid but you used sapphire and quartz as your examples so it wasn't clear if that would have been complicating matters more. The important point was that these are not your classic glasses where the only way to make them less likely to shatter is to make them more resistant to scratches/pitting. No matter how you interpret the specific numbers, the Corning data clearly shows that the material is less likely to break without being commensurately more difficult to scratch. This supports the point that with these modern materials one does not equal the other, so "science" doesn't dictate that the phones couldn't be easier to scratch now than before even though they're less likely to crack.

    We do have a small sample, but that doesn't change the fact that in my experience, the iPhone 6S scratches more easily than the 1-6 did.
     
  25. RadioRaiders

    RadioRaiders RF Black-Belt
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    Based on past Apple fault management, I think we can expect:
    1) Apple denies any problem
    2) Apple issues free screen protectors
    3) Apple fixes problem in next release
     
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  26. viewfly

    viewfly Mobile RF Advisor
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    I think you misunderstood or I didn't express my point well enough.

    I'm trying to refute this notion I've been reading on the web that somehow 'scratch resistance' and 'shatter resistance' are in some kind of see-saw relationship: People are saying that scratch resistance has been sacrificed for the benefit shatter resistance. Not likely, at all.

    That would not be the intent or plan from Corning. Surface roughness (intentional or from scratches) directly weaken the strength and increases the shatter probability of glass materials, including 'modern materials'. Polished glass (mechanically or via chemical polishing) is stronger, more shatter resistance. Defects from scratches weaken glass, including Gorilla Glass.

    In fact the tests on Corning's GG tech sheets of Abrasion Resistance are indeed just those kinds of tests: There are many types...drop GG onto 180 grit sandpaper, or scratch the glass in a controlled manner to see how the breaking point decreases.

    I tried to find something simple to validate my point, so from the 'horse's mouth' here is Corning FAQ on GG 3:

    [​IMG]

    Corning states it clearly: Scratches, or damage weaken the glass. So they try to maintain scratch resistance or improve it, if possible. Not reduce it. Glass science hasn't changed, even with modern materials.

    Glass, and GG break easily when dropped on a pointed surface. Aside from the material properties, think of it (scratches) as being a single or multiple load points; GG damage from scratches also provide point loading areas, plus the weakened site for break propagation. The drop tests done by Corning onto 'sandpaper' do just that: damage the glass at multiple points and then measure the shatter resistance.

    BTW, my inclusion of the term 'quartz' was to use a layperson term; I mean Fused Silica which is Quartz material in a amphorous solid, and the common window material.

    I cannot refute that your iPhone 6S is more scratched than your 6. It's your phone, and I'm sure that it is. But that doesn't connect to it being more easily scratched than last year's phone glass. Only proper scratch tests would determine that difference. But I contend that it is not a planned consequence from Corning. They know that abrasion or scratches will decrease shatter resistance...and that is on their web site.

    I haven't seen any large scale, reliable press reporting about 6S glass being more scratch-able. It does not appear to have any traction in the press that I can find. So where is this story coming from?

    As I said, mine is pristine.




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    #26 viewfly, Sep 7, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2016
  27. RadioRaiders

    RadioRaiders RF Black-Belt
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    It's coming from actual long-time users. Maybe even more of a trustworthy source than "Press releases" ;)

    But what if your phone DID have more scratches than all your previous iPhones, as Charlyee and KWA have noticed? Surely they are not anti-Apple trolls and liars?
     
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  28. charlyee

    charlyee Ultimate Insanity
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    @viewfly, the statement from Corning that you posted refers to deep scratches and cracks and yes they are degrees of one and the same and thus are not mutually exclusive.

    What JWA, myself and others are referring to is surface scratches, the ones that appear without the device having gone through any "abuse".

    Btw, I believe the 6s has GG 4.


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  29. viewfly

    viewfly Mobile RF Advisor
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    That ridiculous. You are placing words in my mouth that I didn't say. No one is lying. These data points aren't lies either. I haven't doubted anyone's report of more scratches on their phone. The conclusion, generalized to 10 millions of phones (and more, since it's a Corning material that encompasses other brands of phones too), are open to legitimate interpretation, discussion however.

    Unlike Antennagate, etc, I googled and haven't seen the a volume of complaints. In fact, the complaints were about the 6, not 6S.

    If it were my phone? I would blame myself first, and how I handled the phone, and my personal misfortune. I wouldn't jump to a conclusion of it being a world wide problem.

    And I certainly wouldn't believe that Corning made the glass less scratch resistance to increase the breakage resistances that some on the web have said.




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    #29 viewfly, Sep 7, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2016
  30. viewfly

    viewfly Mobile RF Advisor
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    Material hardness is hardness. One could sandpaper wood (or gorilla glass) with a feather touch and make little progress or deep scratches. But add some 'elbow grease', and deeper cuts and progress will be made.

    The Corning statement is valid for all GG.

    I've been inside Corning's research labs and seen the tests made first hand.

    Can you feel the scratch with your fingernail? If not, I do suspect these surface scratches are in the softer oleophobic coating. That is very common and maybe the 6S coating is softer than the 6 on some phones. Just a suspicion. I'm not doubting your observation.


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    #30 viewfly, Sep 7, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2016

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