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Cingular MOST Reliable in NY/NJ

Discussion in 'Northeastern US Wireless Forum' started by jones, Feb 6, 2006.

  1. Fire14

    Fire14 Easy,Cheap & Sleazy
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    It didn't seem like you were making a blanket statment, I think Cingular & Jones were making a blanket statement, and as you said no carrier can make that statment at least not at this point of the wireless wars. ;)

    I just try to keep an open mind that no 1 carrier is right for everyone, and that what works for 1 person doesn't always work for another (for me I tried Verizon & they didn't work for me, but I have friends that they do work well for them).
     
  2. coalminer

    coalminer Senior Member
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    I thought I read that somewhere, that the power output of a GSM phone was fixed, but I guess it was wrong.

    Are you sure about the 2 watt thing? I thought the max allowed was like .6 watts?
     
  3. viewfly

    viewfly Mobile RF Advisor
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    Yep. 2 watts peak power @ 850Mhz. The average or continuous power equivalent, which is a better measure for battery power determination, is ~ 0.25 watts (250 milliwatts). This is because the duty or 'on' cycle is 1:8, that causes the 8 time slots per second and a watt is defined as energy per second. Average power is probably a better indicator on how much RF heats your brain, if your concerned about that.

    It is only 1 watt peak @ 1900 Mhz. Same thing; the average power is 1/8 the peak.

    I believe it was 0.6 watt for AMPS/TDMA. All these technologies allow for the tower to reduce the peak power after the call is set up.

    I believe, but not 100% certain, that the average power for CDMA is 200milliwatts. Again the peak power is higher due to pulse encoding. But it is 'on', I believe, even during periods of no conversation,unlike GSM. Probably it is one reason for poorer battery life of CDMA systems. Actually the complicated coding makes it difficult to determine peak/average power measurements.

    -viewfly, in Japan
     
    #33 viewfly, Feb 12, 2006
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2006
  4. MeatChicken

    MeatChicken Senior Member
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    2 Watts @ 800Mhz was the max power allowed for a fone by the FCC, for any technology, from AMPS forward.
    Only the old "full sized Car fones", & Bag + Lead-acid Battery fones produced the 2watts.
    Most current handsets are rated between 200-600 milliwatts max. output capability.
     
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  5. viewfly

    viewfly Mobile RF Advisor
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    3 watts is the max allowed power by the FCC and provided by all external amplifiers (wilson electonics and others www.wilsonelectronics.com).

    My Nokia 6230 manual (GMS) specifically states the Tx RF power at 2 watts max, whereas my older 5100' series manual (analog/TDMA) had only 0.6watts max. Go to www.nokiausa.com and check for yourself.

    viewfly - stuck in the japan airport hotel due to flight cancellation from NYC snowfall - 27 inches
     
  6. MeatChicken

    MeatChicken Senior Member
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    3 watts , not 2 (I knew that!:) ) .. I stand corrected.
    Wow, I didn't know modern handheld fones had output capabilities of 2 watts! I wonder if the 2w spec is a "GSM" thing, some sort of "Peak - max - burst capability on Friday" sort of spec, or indeed the fone can sustain 2w of xmit output power......
     
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  7. jones

    jones Silver Senior Member
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    http://www.northjersey.com/page.php...3dnFlZUVFeXkyJmZnYmVsN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXk2ODc5MjQy

    3 watts is Still Dangerous per one Lady Resident.


    Towers of turmoil
    Sunday, February 12, 2006

    By MAYA KREMEN
    STAFF WRITER


    It's hard to run any business these days without a cellphone. But that doesn't mean farmer Andy Borinski likes the tradeoffs that come with good reception.

    "The town gets money, and we get to look at an aluminum tree," said Borinski, who owns a Lincoln Park vegetable farm adjacent to land the borough is thinking of leasing for construction of a tower or antenna.

    Despite residents' complaints about how they stand out and suspicions about the rays they emit, cellular towers and antennas are most likely coming to a location near you – if they haven't already.

    The number of towers in the state has jumped by more than a third in the last five years. At least one company has a comprehensive plan to spread its equipment into Morris and Bergen counties. New Jersey is one of the top five densest states for cellular towers in the country, said Jim Fryer, president of Fryer's Tower Source, a Pennsylvania-based organization that provides data for the cellular-phone industry.

    Towns can limit where towers and antennas can be built and how they look. Some are allowing them to be built on municipal land through lucrative leases. A town can make as much as $120,000 a year from cellphone companies, Fryer said.

    Wayne, which recently allowed a 150-foot tower on municipal property, is inviting bids on a second location, and looking for a third site. The township already receives an annual rental income of $100,000 from cellphone companies using the tower, with a fee increase every five years.

    "Everyone has cellphones. Everyone wants service. If they're going to go up, we might as well put them on municipal property and benefit from the revenue," said Public Works Superintendent Tim Collins.

    According to the Federal Communications Act of 1996, local governments can't prohibit communications equipment from being built, but they can regulate the placement of the equipment, and the way the equipment looks.

    As communities grow, they face pressures to accommodate an increasing number of towers, while still keeping those towers out of sight of residents. Until this point, Lincoln Park in eastern Morris County has had only one cell tower, built on private property 10 years ago. Last year, its Borough Council voided a cellphone company's contract to build an antenna atop a water tower after residents came out against it.

    The scarcity of towers only makes the borough a more attractive location for cellular companies, which are trying to push out into areas that were previously not covered. In 2005 alone, Cingular added 21 new cell sites in Morris County and 18 in Bergen County. This year, the company intends to spend $500 million to secure 250 sites in New York and New Jersey.

    "Wireless carriers have had to continue to build out into the rural and suburban areas," said Alexa Kaufman, a Cingular spokeswoman. "We need to add additional capacity."

    The number of cellphone subscribers nationwide has increased sevenfold in the past 10 years, from 28 million to almost 200 million. But only a limited amount of radiation can be absorbed and transmitted through each antenna, so as the number of users and companies increase, more antennas are needed to accommodate them, Kaufman said.

    Residents in many towns say that the antennas mar views and that their presence brings down property values. Based on radiation studies, the federal government maintains that towers are not a health risk, but some studies suggest that it's too soon to tell if the electromagnetic waves they produce can cause cancer.

    In some cases, residents' objections have succeeded in preventing new towers and antennas from being built. Besides the revolt in Lincoln Park, last month Mahwah turned down Cingular's proposal to build a tower on land owned by the Fire Department because it was too close to a group of homes.

    But cellular companies have fought back, getting bans in Leonia, Kinnelon and Fair Lawn overturned.

    "Cell towers have good protection under federal law," said John Payne, a Rutgers Law School professor who specializes in land use.

    Although they can't ban towers, municipal planners are getting better at determining how they blend into the environment. In West Milford, for instance, ordinances stipulate that towers can't be more than 20 feet higher than an area's trees or less than 300 feet from a property line. They must be built into barn silos or made to resemble trees.

    As one consequence, cellphone carriers have been forced to produce an array of "stealth" antennas and towers. Besides the ones that resemble trees (known in the business as "stealth-tree monopoles"), there are antennas that can be attached to water tower legs, ones that look like church steeples, and towers that double as flagpoles.

    A cleverly disguised tower would still be a problem for Bonnie Pohen, who lives about a thousand feet behind the Lincoln Park DPW yard where borough officials are considering a tower. She's looking to sell her home in a few years, and worries that a tower would bring the value down.

    "I wouldn't buy a house that had a cellphone tower next to it," she said. "They haven't disproven that there's radiation."


    To Mayor David Baker, though, a tower or antenna equals added revenue in a time when the municipal wallet has been lightened by heightened energy costs, pensions and other expenses. He said leasing a portion of the yard could bring in as much as $60,000 in rental fees.

    He also mentioned another advantage: service in the town's dead zones, which include his hardware store, and parts of the Borinski farm.

    Farmer Borinski might grumble about the aluminum trees, but his son Drew, who uses his cellphone to take orders and correspond with vendors, wouldn't mind another tower nearby.

    "I have no problems with it," he said. "Down by the barn, I get dropped calls."
     
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  8. whosurbud

    whosurbud Junior Member
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    Analog phones were 3 watts max, an example would be the old Moto bag phones. tdma phones were 28 dbm.

    also, GSM has several classes of mobiles. The most popular are class 4 and class 5 mobiles.

    class 4 is 33dbm on 850, 30dbm on 1900
    class 5 is 29 dbm on 850, 30 dbm on 1900.

    30 dbm = 1 watt
    33 dbm = 2 watts
    29 dbm = 0.8 watts
    28 dbm = 0.6 watts

    hope that helps clear some of the misinformation.

    Doesn't mean they actually radiate that well though, quite the contrary. But that's what they are capable of if the test equipment is plugged in to their external antenna spiggot.

    what they are actually capable of in terms of radiating is more related to the design of their internal antennas, not their internal power amplifiers terminated in to a pure resistive load (e.g. 50 ohm load).

    Some handsets (antennas) radiate better than others. Thus the occasional crummy phone ya might stumble on. If they all radiated anywhere near what the amplifier is capable of, you wouldn't have as many problems.

    You wanna find a place were your operator has trouble? Take a ride around with the 'crummiest' phone ya can find, not the 'best' one.

    my 2 cents
     
  9. viewfly

    viewfly Mobile RF Advisor
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    The same as what I said. RF power specs are always referenced to the amplifier RF output, not through the antenna. That's because the antenna can have gain less than, equal to or greater than 1, as you say.

    So my Nokia 6230 seems to be class 4 then. And the TDMA were 0.6Watts.

    viewfly - tired, but back in CT
     
  10. whosurbud

    whosurbud Junior Member
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    yeah, sorry bout that, 'misinformation" poor choice of words i guess.
    but all the gory details regarding gsm handset specs are freely available, think i saw it on gsmworld? one of them gsm consortium sponsored sites.
     
  11. bobolito

    bobolito Diamond Senior Member
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    Hey, whosurbud! long time no see. ;) You know I would have a word or two to say about Cingular's reliability in NYC/NJ. I've been fixing friends Motorola phones to use the AMR-FR codec as they have all been complaining about the frequent loss of audio during conversations as we've discussed. I posted about this and Cingular customer's response from some other areas of the US was that they are having the same issue regardless of the network's origin (orange or blue).

    Nevertheless, I still find Sprint, T-Mo and Nextel have always been inferior in this area in terms of coverage quality and call reliability. So although the article overly exagerates, they are not far from reality.
     
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  12. bobolito

    bobolito Diamond Senior Member
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    A cellphone tower next to your house will probably give you 30dBm = 1 watt. A cellphone transmitting in your ear is more than that. Once again ignorance prevails. She's talking as if putting her cellphone in her ear is not blasting her with much more radiation.
     
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  13. Yankees368

    Yankees368 Compulsive Signal Checker
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    Look at this little gem that pops up on cingulars site when you punch in an NYC zip code

    http://onlinestorez.cingular.com/cell-phone-service/get-started/pop-coverage.jsp?q_zip=11598

    "* Based on independent testing by leading authorities in wireless research. Network reliability testing did not include the following NJ counties: Hunterdon, Middlesex. Monmouth, Ocean, Sussex and Warren."

    In real world terms, cingular sucks here, but we aint gonna tell you that!
     
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  14. bobolito

    bobolito Diamond Senior Member
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    Then again, I bet you other services suck even more in the aforementioned areas. ;)
     
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  15. jones

    jones Silver Senior Member
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    Cingular mainly Outspends their Competition
    in Coverage Buildout because they're the Biggest.
    No other carrier claims more than 47,000 Cell Sites.
     
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  16. Fire14

    Fire14 Easy,Cheap & Sleazy
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    I guess they don't look at these area's as part of the NYC area, which other then Middlesex County the rest aren't close to the NY area, and can understand them excluding them. Hunterdon, Sussex and Warren are farther west & Monmouth, Ocean are considered more of the Philly/South Jersey area.
    And as bobolito stated, other carriers are weak in these area's with the possible execption of Verizon.
     
  17. bobolito

    bobolito Diamond Senior Member
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    That's a very good point, fire. Now that I think about it, those counties are not part of the NYC market.
     
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  18. TurboDan

    TurboDan Junior Member
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    Monmouth County isn't out of the NYC market at all. Geez, you can see the Verrazano Bridge from Route 36 in Middletown! Neither is Ocean, north of Toms River IMO. I don't think I've ever seen a Philly sports bumper sticker in Monmouth County in my life!

    Anywho... I recently switched to Cingular and coverage is more than adequate in Monmouth County, where my family lives. It's hard to beat in NYC, where I have an apartment. I would say it's equal to Verizon, having subscribed to both services. Both beat the pants off Nextel, which I've also had!
     
  19. Fire14

    Fire14 Easy,Cheap & Sleazy
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    Unfortunatly the way the carriers and Govt. see it Mommouth county isn't considered part of the NY market as well as Ocean County, they consider that area as the Philly Market (even though you don't see any Philly stickers)
    As for beating the pants off Nextel, every carrier does that anymore including their mother company Sprint & smaller T-Mobile. I have so many issues with my Nextel it gets very fustrating & reminds me of when Cellphones were in the early stages.
    Glad to hear you are happy with your current coverage, I know when I have been in Mommouth County I haven't had problems with Cingular including on Sandy Hook.
     
  20. bobolito

    bobolito Diamond Senior Member
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    Actually, I was referring to Cingular's market divisions, which are different from the MSA. For Cingular, the NYC market is the "Empire" market (or market 42) which includes NYC 5 boroughs, Long Island, Westchester, Rockland, Putnam and Orange counties in NY, plus Bergen, Passaic, Hudson, Morris, Essex, Union, Somerset, Hunderdon and Sussex counties in NJ.

    Middlesex, Monmouth and Ocean are considered as "market 39" by Cingular (not part of NYC market). Atlantic and Cape May Counties are part of the "Atlantic City" market while Warren County is part of the E. PA market. The rest of NJ is part of the Philly market.

    This is all an internal and proprietary market division which Cingular has established for service distribution and it is based on their spectrum licensing structure. It has nothing to do with government statistics and demographics.

    Here's what belongs to the NYC MSA:

    [​IMG]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_metropolitan_area

    Here's the way Cingular has its market subdivision:

    [​IMG]
    Please note that this map is pre-AWS merger and as such does not reflect the AWS spectrum acquisitions. However, the same market divisions remain.
     
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  21. josephd

    josephd Tomorrow is another day.
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    I have the same problem Tom, there are too many instances where I am miles away on a delivery and need to contact the office, but I have to rely on my Cingular phone because of non-existant Nextel service.
     
  22. Fire14

    Fire14 Easy,Cheap & Sleazy
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    Wow, this is a nice map showing their distribution setup. It is interesting how they count what counties are part of the NY area, it is funny that they have Pike PA county in the green area & not Warren County but include them in the Philly market.
    I do agree with you TurboDan that it would seem to make sense at least part of Mommouth county would be in the NY market, but I guess they looked at the size of the County & decided it would be too far south to include it, just like Middlesex County.
     

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