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Cell companies ill prepared for emergencies & extended outages

Discussion in 'Wireless News' started by ILUVSOCAL, Aug 17, 2003.

  1. ILUVSOCAL

    ILUVSOCAL Banned
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    Cell companies ill prepared for emergencies & extended outages

    http://news.com.com/2100-1039-5064278.html?tag=nl



    Looks like depending on your cell phone in emergenices may not be a good idea. Someone needs to ask some serious questions as to why the carriers are so ill prepared for emergenices and exteneded outages like the NE had Thursday. I mean, they keep harping on how good cell phones are for emergencies, but if you can knock all the cell sites offline with just a 6 hour outage, what good is it then? Where are the generators? One thing I learned from this article was that while landlines can turn their network back on selectively after an outage, to say only police and fire in an emergency, the wireless companies still haven't done this, and the network becomes a free for all when being turned back on. I think the cell companies have got away with too little regulation for too long. Until they get their reliability up, I would not get rid of my landline, and if you have, you might want to get it back.
     
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  2. jayc

    jayc Bronze Senior Member
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    I think most all VZW sites stayed up during the duration but the 4x than average call volume caused problems for some customers to make calls. [​IMG]
     
  3. ZaphodB

    ZaphodB Signal Go Down De Hole...
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    It's the same with landlines... in a major quake, for example the Northridge quake in '94, the landlines were all down as well.
     
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  4. Airb330

    Airb330 Silver Senior Member
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    We can't be covered for anything. This is why I think it's still good to have analog so you can use in some cases 2 other networks or at least another network. And I am dang tired of hearing about this blackout, it's not the end of the world.
     
  5. IowaUser

    IowaUser Junior Member
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    Amen. I thought I was the only one.
     
  6. ILUVSOCAL

    ILUVSOCAL Banned
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    Relax, it's a wireless forum [​IMG] You are the first two to say you're tired of hearing about it, most of us want to know why it happened and how to prevent it from happening again, next time, it could be a lot worse.
     
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  7. IowaUser

    IowaUser Junior Member
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    You edited this while I was replying. [​IMG] I want to know why it happened just like most people. I'm sick of the spectulation though. Once the facts come out, then we can talk about how to prevent it from happening again. It's too political right now to find a real solution. Wouldn't you agree? How do you find a solution to something before you know the cause?
     
  8. XprtCop

    XprtCop =- Legend -=
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    Proper Preparedness and intensive testing?
    Thats what computer networks go under all the time, Penetration Testing, to ward of hackers and such.

    Before cell phones existed, theer were well other means of communication, I feel it should be up to the individual to find out about these means and be prepared to deal with the what ifs.
    when it comes a simultaneous problem for the larger masses, then Lex Talionis! Survival of the fittest!
     
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  9. IowaUser

    IowaUser Junior Member
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    Perhaps you did not understand what I meant. Even with proper preparedness and intensive testing will not necessarily tell you what caused your problem. There could have many causes for the outage, each with a different way of solving the problem for next time. If it was lightning that caused that outage, then the solution is very different than if a hacker caused this. Government officials are looking into the cause, then we can seek a remedy. That's all I'm saying.
     
  10. GoodmanR

    GoodmanR Silver Senior Member
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    This is a wireless forum, not one about electrical engineering. Our topic here is preventing wireless networks from failing in the event of a power outage or major emergency. If you are tired of hearing about it, you dont have to read it. No one is making you come here, or click on a thread.

    Everyone seems to be claiming that VZW was most reliable during this...I spoke with four or five friends in Manhattan who use VZW and were not able to make calls, even with constant redialing, for about 5 or 6 hours. Mobile web and TXT did not work for them at all for a few hours.

    ATT and Cingular/TMO (same network in NYC) seem to be the only ones admitting that they had problems. VZW especially, seems to be denying it.
     
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  11. ILUVSOCAL

    ILUVSOCAL Banned
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    Maybe the cell companies could take a little advice from these guys [​IMG]


    http://www.drgibson.com/towers/

    This quote from the page is my favorite "I was inside one of the towers, and saw an AT&T motto on the wall. "Communications is the foundation of democracy," it said. Never was a more true statement made. A nation that hopes to be a responsible republic or democracy requires free and open communication for survival, both political and economic. I repeat the motto here because it shows the great degree of dedication present in the old Bell System, and particularly in the group that was known as AT&T Long Lines. Flagpoles adorned each manned installation. Crews knew that their job was ultra-important. If nuclear war hit, they likely would leave their hardened facilities and find their families long gone. This group truly was an organization dedicated to their motto."

    Somewhere, somehow the communications companies have lost site of this, it's time they get their eyesight back. Terrorists are able to do terrible things, as we've seen in 9-11, and the threat of Nuclear attack is as present as ever, if not more so now. I just worry when a little thing like this can take down the communications of several million people, imagine if this were a major attack, would we be ready to ensure America's communications? Like their motto said, "communications is the foundation of democracy", perhaps this democracy needs to do some serious communicating with these "communications" companies, wireless, wireline and otherwise. I still feel that the deregulation of the telephone system and later the power system were two of the biggest mistakes ever made, to put such critical things neccessary for our survival solely in the hands of private enterprise is unwise and I think we're seeing the problems from it now.
     
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  12. mcf04581

    mcf04581 Senior Member
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    I was in detroit and my Verizon phones worked fine except for having to redial a couple of times, but thats expected in a time like this. I can say one thing for sure, it was nice talking on my phone while people with other carriers yelled at their phones for not working.
     
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  13. SNSE

    SNSE Senior Member
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    Look,

    You can put a backup generator at every site, and propane storage tanks. But where do you think the cost is going to get passed to? If I have 135 sites in an area, and 5 of them fail, my network faired very well. This is the wireless business, people, there is NO guarantee of coverage or service 24X7. You HOPE it will be up, and you EXPECT it will be up, but nobody guarantees 100% completed calls, 100% coverage, it just won't happen in the real world. Now, in a high rise, where are you going to put a generator if your cell site is somewhere in the middle of the building? You're not, you'll put in a string of backup batteries that you hope will hold at max call volume for a couple of hours, no more. In the BUSINESS MODEL it doesn't make sense to do anything else. You are also not going to build in 100 extra channels per site JUST IN CASE something happens. As far as the Telcos go, we now have fiber, and competing companies. When AT&T was the ONLY thing around, yes, they had to be very bulletproof. We do have redundancy in our networks, we do have alternative methods of call routing, but let's face it, nobody will stay in business if they build sites based upon an EXPECTED call volume event in the future, not on actual normal usage. You would be bankrupt in 2 years from Capital Expendatures that never realized any type of income.
     
  14. Rich

    Rich Bronze Senior Member
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    Agreed[​IMG]
     
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  15. ILUVSOCAL

    ILUVSOCAL Banned
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    Then the government should fill in the rest of the expense, these things are too valuable to be left in the hands of bean counters and business types, if we want to continue as a nation in time of emergency, they need to do more to ensure communication goes through. Having your network go down in a matter of a few hours is not acceptable, period. Cell phones have become a utility in this modern world, just as landlines and power is, and should be regulated as such.
     
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  16. SNSE

    SNSE Senior Member
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    But let's stop and think about a disaster and basic necessary communications. The first priority for communications in an emergency or disaster is Basic Services (Police, Fire, Medic, Local Government), next is ARES or RACES to augment and pass traffic from group to group or area to area (amateur emergency service) and then statewide communication resources for state government.

    Remember, a cell phone is still considered a WANT, not a NEED. And we don't NEED the government trying to regulate how much capacity, and subsidizing something else that doesn't fit in the budget.
     
  17. ILUVSOCAL

    ILUVSOCAL Banned
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    Good debate so far, very fair and no fighting, thanks [​IMG]
     
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  18. SNSE

    SNSE Senior Member
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    Yep, this is a discussion forum, not a Presidential debate. [​IMG]
     
  19. aiwapro

    aiwapro Silver Senior Member
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    T-Mobile worked when mostof my city was in a black-out.
     
  20. ILUVSOCAL

    ILUVSOCAL Banned
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    Good to hear, it seems some companies did okay, and others were caught with their pants down with the spotlight shinging on them [​IMG]
     
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  21. ILUVSOCAL

    ILUVSOCAL Banned
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    LOL true
     
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  22. MH

    MH New Member

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    I believe almost all cell sites have generator backup, in most cases for a min of 24 hours. However, during the blackout, all major switching equipment was down. All cell sites are connected to their switch via land-lines, when the switching equipment fails, there is no way for the sites to communicate to their switch (which is what connects them to the public network). I also believe that some carriers have their sites setup so they are able to communicate site to site without connecting to the public network. I recall that this was the reason that Nextel was the only carrier that was up during 9/11.

    Although I do agree that every effort should be made to have complete redundancy, but I do not believe it is reasonable to designate this responsibility solely to the wireless carriers. From what I understand, a good portion of public safety network was down along with air traffic control.

    On a side note, what do you think it would cost to create a completely redundant wireless network, public safety network, or air traffic control network....and would you pay an extra $100 per plane ride or maybe $25 to your monthly wireless bill?
     
  23. ILUVSOCAL

    ILUVSOCAL Banned
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    "Although I do agree that every effort should be made to have complete redundancy, but I do not believe it is reasonable to designate this responsibility solely to the wireless carriers"

    Me either, that's where I feel the Federal Government should step in and help out, it is our nation's lifeline after all [​IMG]
     
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  24. Airb330

    Airb330 Silver Senior Member
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    Ugh, we do not need the government involved in more crap. While it sounds great here, they simply cannot be responible for everything! Look at the government bailing out Amtrak, the airlines, while it's great for awhile....they become dependant! De-regulation imo was a good idea at the time. I am tired of hearing "Land of the free", well if I want cable, Comcast, if I want phones, Verizon, if I want power, DelmarvaPower. So much for a choice huh (at least in Delaware). So, perhaps one day my state will see benefits of this. Just in theory, a super-monopoly like before airline deregulation, power, etc. is antithetical to some of our country's basic values (competition, survival of the fittest). Then again, everything seems to be hyppocritical haha. Wireless will never be 100%, nothing is, nothing will ever be. Crap happens, and we just have to deal. I feel the current 'government' has ultra-HYPED up the terrorist element IMO to scare people.
     
  25. ILUVSOCAL

    ILUVSOCAL Banned
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    Amtrak is a vital part of our transportation, both today, and even more so in the future, and deserves the billions that congress is proposing for them, no passenger train system(or any public transportation system for that matter)in the world pays for itself, that includes planes, highways, and busses too, they all deserve equal and fair funding. Now back to the cellular stuff, I do think that the government needs to get more involved, they did in the power and telephone systems, and we now have power and phones to virtually all communities in the US(yes, there are still a few places not on the power grid NOR the telephone system), if left to private enterprise, this would probably never have come to pass. If anything, this current administration is become way too lax on regulating and enforcing laws and industries, just today I saw where old tricky bushey is letting the power comapnies spew their crap into the air with no regulation, got a gas mask handy? It would be a great world where private enterprise did what was right and regulated themselves properly, but this isn't that world.
     
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  26. Airb330

    Airb330 Silver Senior Member
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    I do not see Amtrak as worth the money anymore. Trains in Europe are awesome, and well worth the money. AMtrak is slow, expensive, and poor. I think a NYC-Philly-Boston type thing is about all we can expect (acela=slow though). We are just too big of a country for trains, though I would love to see trains connect major cities in a region. I just don't think it will happen, same with wireless, it would be nice, but wireless just sucks and probably always will. High and mighty Verizon doesn't have that great of coverage (1X sucks, takes away from dbs). I am so tired of incessant Verizon cheerleading. The only place I have seen rock solid Verizon is Wilmington, DE. I guess I should expect less from "Americas best network"?
     
  27. ZaphodB

    ZaphodB Signal Go Down De Hole...
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    The Coast Starlight is useful as well... from SD to LA... dunno how useful it is from LA to SF. And the Capitol Corridor... I used to go from Berkeley (actually Richmond) to Sacto on that regularly... cheaper than flying, by far.

    As for the national network... well, I hate to say it but it's not even close to competitive. If it were cheaper than flying I could see it but I really don't have time to take 3 days to get to New York, not when I can fly for less money and be there in five hours.
     
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  28. ILUVSOCAL

    ILUVSOCAL Banned
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    "I do not see Amtrak as worth the money anymore."


    Thankfully, most of Congress and Americans don't agree with that [​IMG]
     
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  29. ILUVSOCAL

    ILUVSOCAL Banned
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    Like I said, IT'S NOT MEANT TO BE COMPETITIVE, it's a PUBLIC SERVICE, just like the trains in Europe everybody likes to talk about. If you are in a hurry, fly Zaphod, but I can tell you nothing beats seeing America by train, nor the friends you wil make along the way. Also, in may communities(ie.Montana), Amtrak is THE only public transportation in the winter, and in some places the summer to, and is depended on by small towns to ship and receive things, and for people to get to medical clinics. No offense, but you two need to learn a lot more about the rail industry, and passenger trains in particular [​IMG]

    Visit these links, learn some stuff [​IMG]

    http://progressiverailroading.com

    http://amtrak.com

    http://aar.org/ (Association of American Railroads)

    http://www.tomorrowsrailroads.org/
     
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  30. Airb330

    Airb330 Silver Senior Member
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    Face it, Amtrak as it is now...sucks. I think its useful for 3 hour and less trips, and will be better with faster trains. It again, is useful in areas where it's the only transportation. It's not feasable for longer trips and will not be for a long time. Planes are simply better for cross-country travel, though trains are better for cooridor routes, and I am glad Amtrak seems to be moving in that direction. About most "Americans", they never use Amtrak and probably have no opinion, since they are quite uneducated lol! I agree, in some cases it's a public service, but a public service should be useful...in some cases Amtrak isn't, but I hope they continue to change and grow.

    Example: Amtrack from Wilmington DE to NYC, costs usually at least 150$. Many people are living in lower DE and traveling to NYC for a job (ick too far). They'd spend over 100$ each day, and still have to drive to Wilmington. Almost everyone drives, and honestly, it's just as fast unless there is a major accident. This was all in the paper regarding our area's recent boom in population. See, in this case Amtrak isn't feasable.

    I hope you see my point. I know you enjoy railroads. I am just merely stating my opinion, for my area. It's not that I am totally against Amtrak lol, just needs help that's all. So do the airlines, but I hope they just don't become dependant on government $.
     

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