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CDMA vs GSM : Can we have a clear winner ?

Discussion in 'GENERAL Wireless Discussion' started by AKKU, Feb 4, 2003.

  1. emag0rad

    emag0rad Senior Member
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    Why? 18 million users is not too shabby, besides, in many ways, Eudora is a better product and certainly more secure than Outlook. Maybe IBM should drop Lotus Notes too.
     
  2. WirelessBeachBum

    WirelessBeachBum Soylent Green is People
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    I use the palm version of Eudora on my handspring Treo....I like it ...It's free and you can realy customize it...of course it's not as simple as Pocket outlook on the Pocket PC's but...then again it is a Palm.
     
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  3. eagle63

    eagle63 Junior Member
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    18 million?? wow, I would have been surprised to hear 18 people are using Eudora....
     
  4. bobolito

    bobolito Diamond Senior Member
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    Well, I might as well lock this thread as it is getting out of track because of me. I don't know where those 18 million users are but, I still think Eudora is not even close to be a true messaging platform like Notes or Outlook. The reason Eudora appears to be more secure, is because less hackers attempt to compromise it because it is less popular and less people use it. Just look at Linux or Mac versus Windows. Windows is more secure than the Linux platform, but the reason more attempts have been made to break into Windows is because it is more popular.
     
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  5. emag0rad

    emag0rad Senior Member
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    Eudora does not allow automatic activation of ActiveX nor does it allow direct access to local drives. Further, Eudora (Qualcomm) has decided not to overtly advertise its security advantages for precisely the same reasons you mention about hackers targeting MS products - Eudora's product managers have perhaps made the wise decision. Besides, I was just discussing mail clients - not platforms. If I were to deploy a messaging platform and was given comlete purchasing descretion, I would choose hands down the Notes platform.
     
  6. Bugwart

    Bugwart Bronze Senior Member
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    Re Northform's statement:

    Finally, UMTS/wCDMA will blow away Qualcomm's 1xEV-DO/DV.

    I have searched for information on both WCDMA and 1XEVDO. I have tried to find unbiased reports comparing these networks. What I have read does not support your statement. However, opinions need no longer be based on speculation. Both systems are operating commercially. Japan will have both WCDMA and CDMA2000 1XEV-DO operating side by side in Tokyo. EV-DO is in commercial operation throughout S. Korea.

    Northform, I would like to see any data you have on the commercial WCDMA and 1XEV-DO networks.

    BTW, it is my understanding that all CDMA handsets* are compatible with all CDMAOne and CDMA2000 networks (assuming they operate in the same frequencies). When I land in Korea and turn on my 4 year old Samsung SCH4400 CDMA One handset, it works fine on the SK Telecom CDMA2000 1X and 1XEV-DO network.

    This is certainly not the case for GSM/GPRS/EDGE/UMTS. My GSM phones will only operate on GPRS/EDGE/UMTS networks because of legacy channels set aside for GSM use.



    * All CDMA One handsets except the Nokia handsets with non compatible Nokia CDMA chipsets.
     
  7. DaveyJ

    DaveyJ Junior Member
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    Just wanted to post my $0.02...

    In regards to spectrum. There's some interesting legislation going on in the US as we speak about the problem of insufficient bandwidth for the upcoming 3G networks. But, since recently I've been watching most of the FCC telecom regulation they are basically trying to put a time frame on how long the TV station broadcasters have to give up their old spectrum. This, in turn, is forcing our television broadcasts to move way of the digital platform and free up spectrum for more fun things like our new phones... [​IMG]

    If anyone's interested in the link for such legislation meetings I'd be glad to post!
     
  8. wyldekard

    wyldekard Member
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    This is a very interesting debate, but I think the original question of this thread has never been answered and possibly cannot be answered. This is like T1 and E1 in the hardwire world. Some parts of the world will always be predominately E1 and others will always be predominately T1. Interoperability issues will be worked out (I was involved in bringing an E1 from the Docklands, London, U.K. to North 99th Street in Omaha, NE.), but convergence will never happen. At the end of the day, profit will always be the deciding factor. Of course this is just my opinion. Based on history, not technical facts.
     
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  9. AKKU

    AKKU New Member

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    I , as the originator of this Question would appael to all the mebers of thsi forum to please be concise on the Question. Frankly speaking till now we have had various Service Providers 's spokespersons telling about their 'marvels' but again I reiterate " Can we have a clear winner between GSM and CDMA ". This question is very important in Indian market's context . So please try to say facts .
     
  10. bobolito

    bobolito Diamond Senior Member
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    I think there's a lot of information in the first page of this thread and I think everything that had to be said about it is already there. There's nothing more that can be said about it. I think a straight simple answer is no, there is no clear winner. As far as air interfaces, in a few years they will both end in some sort of spread spectrum technology (WCDMA & 1XEV-DV). CDMA One and GSM will eventually dissapear and technology will continue evolving. This does not mean there's a winner, it simply means technology moves on.
     
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  11. NYCDru

    NYCDru Sprint Newbie
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    Best answer to this question I have seen on this thread ever.
     
  12. Bugwart

    Bugwart Bronze Senior Member
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    Bobolito's comments are correct. It is basically too early to tell.

    Several contributors to this thread seem to have drawn the conclusion that since GSM is present in x number of countries, that the clear 2.5/3G winners will be GPRS/EDGE/WCDMA (UMTS). Europe is bound by regulation to follow this route. They have no options. They could skip steps in the process, such as jumping directly from GSM or GPRS to WCDMA, but the European telcos are locked into upgrading along a single path leading to WCDMA.

    The rest of the world, can and will choose the 3G systems that work best for them. We will be able to assess how WCDMA and CDMA2000 1XEV-DO work side by side as they are now in Japan, and will be soon be in the US, S. Korea, China, and elsewhere. Based on this information, each of the worldâ??s telcos (non-European) will be able to decide for themselves which 3G path to follow.

    The winner may be WCDMA or it may be CDMA2000. Perhaps both systems will co-exist, or perhaps a totally different system will take the world by storm. As Bobolito says, it is simply too early to know.
     
  13. Petnukie

    Petnukie Junior Member
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    Amit Kundra (a.k.a. Akku):

    The debate over GSM vs. CDMA is fascinating. I think Bobolito's summation was excellent.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I have a different question for you. I read your original post and I know you're from India.

    Can you tell me about the cost of cell phones in India and the typical monthly service cost? And how does that compare with the average Indian salary?

    I know in China the cost of cell phones is similar to the U.S. and most people use prepaid services. I think the average salary in China is around $100-$150/month.
     
  14. Kenster

    Kenster Senior Member
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    Yes that's right...we don't have a clear winner and you can't because there's always going to be two-sides of the coin when you're talking about competing technologies.

    Even if independent analysts predicted that CDMA2000 was clearly the technically superior path over WCDMA, it doesn't make them the "clear" winner. What exactly is the definition of a clear winner? For example, here in the US we have both CDMA, GSM, TDMA and Nextel's iDEN technology but I don't see a clear winner. We are looking at technology that involves many variables (including spectrum) and in which continually progresses -- so it can be too difficult to pinpoint a clear winner. Once again, even if CDMA2000 was somewhat technically superior it doesn't necessarily mean they are the clear winner because WCDMA is required in many countries and their sheer numbers globally will still outpace that of CDMA2000 users.

    AKKU: out of curiousity...currently how does the pricing of the GSM carriers compare to the CDMA carrier in India?
     
  15. ehcruzan

    ehcruzan Bronze Senior Member
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    Not to stir the pot, but I have 2 cents to add. Qualcomm's claims of CDMA superiority is nothing but propaganda. They claim excellent voice quality and unrivaled capacity, when in reality you get one or the other, not both. A new or lightly loaded CDMA network has excellent voice quality, however that quickly deteriorates once it gets loaded. I have experienced this firsthand with Sprint's network. Even the vocoder trial on CDG's website shows this to be a fact.

    The two technologies have their advantages and disadvantages, but I would say GSM has the greater advantage. As a matter of fact, the same WCDMA that was bashed as unproven technology is being launched in Europe. Has CDMA2000 (EV, not 1x) gone beyond the trial stages?
     
  16. bobolito

    bobolito Diamond Senior Member
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    WCDMA has been heavily bashed from people speculating that European carriers couldn't handle it and were losing a lot of money, that there were too many problems with WCDMA, that manufacturers could not get it to work correctly, and basically drawing a picture saying that the future of WCDMA was black. To me that's all rubbish from speculators that have nothing better to do with their time. The truth is WCDMA has not been given a chance to prove itself. The same thing happened when CDMA One came out. Nobody believed it was going to work. However, now we see the results. Ironically, nobody seems to pick on 1XEV-DV.
     
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  17. Kenster

    Kenster Senior Member
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    Yes, 1x EV-DO has gone beyond the trial stages. There are 2 countries that have had great success with it. Wanna take a wild guess what those 2 countries are?

    1x EV-DV is the next phase after EV-DO that hasn't been implemented yet. EV-DV will basically improve upon EV-DO by allowing voice & data to piggy-back on the same spectrum to immensely improve upon spectral efficiency. Why would analysts bash 1x EV-DV? It's a nice evolutionary step from EV-DO. Surely you can't compare the massive overhaul of GSM to WCDMA and 1x EV-DO to 1x EV-DV? I've already posted a couple of times now a press release from Nokia's CDMA division praising the 1x EV-DV standard.

    And ehcruzan...you're reiterating the same old thing. It's not about GSM versus CDMA because GSM carriers have already chosen to go with CDMA -- it's called Wideband CDMA. Please don't make me pull up more articles again -- read some of the other threads here on this topic. The real battle boils down to 2 CDMA flavors of the 3G standard: CDMA2000 1x and WCDMA. WCDMA was created in an attempt to side-step the patent grip that Qualcomm has on CDMA -- European carriers didn't want to be "Qualcomm's whipping boy."

    You said that WCDMA is being launched in Europe? So what's your point? Of course they have to launch! WCDMA is the only possible standard because the gov't won't allow competition from competing standards. And carriers are scrambling to implement a WCDMA network as quickly as possible because if they don't meet the deadlines originally set out by the gov't, they will be heavily fined. Many carriers have already begged the gov't to postpone the deadlines. So the question is not about whether WCDMA will launch in Europe -- of course it will -- and I never heard of any analysts saying it won't....it's about watching and monitoring when and how difficult that evolutionary process will be. US/Canada carriers are taking the middle EDGE step, whereas European carriers are taking a big leap to go directly to WCDMA -- that is what is interesting to watch.
     
  18. bobolito

    bobolito Diamond Senior Member
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    Why would analysts bash 1x EV-DV? Because they always have an excuse to critizice everything they haven't seen yet. [​IMG]
     
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  19. ehcruzan

    ehcruzan Bronze Senior Member
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    Kenster, I am not saying that WCDMA is not based on CDMA. My response probably inclined that, however I was referring to 2nd generation CDMA vs GSM. I kind of jumped into WCDMA at the end of my response, however the question of CDMA vs GSM was what I was really trying to address.

    As for my statement of WCDMA being launched in Europe, it was to establish the point that WCDMA is working technology contrary to the common Qualcomm propaganda that claims it is unproven and destined for failure. In addition, it was to give an example of the the propaganda I was referring to. I think everyone knows that WCDMA is a form of CDMA....it's as simple as dropping the W [​IMG]
     
  20. bobolito

    bobolito Diamond Senior Member
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    That was exactly my point ehcruzan.
     
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  21. Kenster

    Kenster Senior Member
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    ..."Qualcomm propaganda that claims it is unproven and destined for failure"

    Are you sure that this statement in itself is not also considered propaganda? You guys are exaggerating. Qualcomm wins both ways and have been embracing both sides. For example, here is part of a press release whereby Qualcomm has praised AT&T Wireless for choosing WCDMA:

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    QUALCOMM Applauds AT&T Wireless' Selection of WCDMA for 3G

    -- More than 30 Manufacturers Licensed for WCDMA by QUALCOMM --


    SAN DIEGO -- December 1, 2000 -- QUALCOMM Incorporated (Nasdaq: QCOM), pioneer and world leader of Code Division Multiple Access (CDMA) digital wireless technology and chipset solutions, today applauded AT&T Wireless'' decision to embrace CDMA technology and deploy third-generation (3G) WCDMA networks beginning in 2002 with rapid expansion thereafter.

    "AT&T''s plans represent a long-awaited decision in favor of CDMA technology by another leading U.S. operator," said Dr. Paul E. Jacobs, executive vice president of QUALCOMM. "We are pleased that AT&T customers will be able to enjoy the benefits of CDMA which include crystal clear voice quality, fewer dropped calls, enhanced security and high-speed, wireless Internet access at unprecedented speeds in the future."

    QUALCOMM has essential patents for the WCDMA standard and has now licensed some or all of its essential patents to more than 30 companies to manufacture WCDMA equipment. Each licensed manufacturer has agreed to pay QUALCOMM the same royalty for WCDMA as that licensed manufacturer is paying for other CDMA standards, including cdmaOne and cdma2000. Some of the companies now licensed to manufacture WCDMA equipment include Ericsson, Fujitsu, Hitachi, Hyundai, Kyocera, LG, Lucent, Matsush*ta, Motorola, NEC, Nortel, Philips, Samsung, Sanyo, Sharp, Sony, Toshiba and other Japanese and Korean licensees expected to be announced shortly.

    ....

    "QUALCOMM looks forward to the opportunity to supply WCDMA chipsets to manufacturers supporting AT&T''s WCDMA deployment," said Don Schrock, president of QUALCOMM CDMA Technologies. "Our industry-leading, advanced chipset solutions will enable CDMA manufacturers to offer powerful and cost-efficient wireless products for AT&T''s customers."
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Now does this sound like a company propagating hate information on WCDMA? Of course Qualcomm many years back might've been disappointed that carriers tried to circumvent their patents by coming up with WCDMA but it's not like they've been taking a fit and spewed propaganda over the past few years. Again, read the excerpt I posted above. Who's the one digging up propaganda here? You've taken Qualcomm's initial disappointment and sentiments and have treated like they've been spreading propaganda against WCDMA from day 1 until now - a few years later. Not true.

    Why don't you look at the other side of the coin? Nokia has also made presentations to the fact that it would be better for CDMA carriers to scrap their network and go with GSM to WCDMA. They boast about it as if it would be a seamless and easy upgrade. If you want to talk about propaganda, you have to look at the European carriers and see the reasoning why they came up with WCDMA in the first place.
     
  22. Bugwart

    Bugwart Bronze Senior Member
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    There are quite a few competing systems in commercial operation. In chronological order:

    • CDMA2000 1X
    • GPRS
    • CDMA2000 1XEV-DO
    • WCDMA

    Therefore, we should be able to compare commercial data.

    Who can provide things like actual data rates for GPRS and WCDMA?

    I have heard that GPRS is delivering 20 to 40 kbps. CDMA2000 1X is delivering 60 t0 80 kbps (SK Telecom data). What is WCDMA delivering?

    What about roaming, hand-offs, dropped calls and other service related issues on these various systems?

    The WCDMA phones in Japan (and Isle of Man) were single mode. Are there commercial multimode WCDMA phones now? If so, are they consistently handing off from WCDMA to GPRS/GSM and back to WCDMA?
     
  23. rshaan

    rshaan Senior Member
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    get GSM just because its a world phone AND u get the bluetooth deal (basically, get a t68i)
     
  24. wyldekard

    wyldekard Member
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    Hey rshaan,

    The origin of this thread is about selecting the infrastructure for an entire country, not about one person buying a single phone. [​IMG]
     
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  25. rshaan

    rshaan Senior Member
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    i feel so left out, im gona go home and cry [​IMG]
     
  26. t720

    t720 Senior Member
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    Awww...so sorry to hear that...you won't feel left out though, if you read some of the posts. Then, you can make a reply relevant to the topic [​IMG]
     

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