cdma/gsm phone

There are no plans for a GSM/CDMA phone. You can blame that on Qualcomm, which controlls CDMA licensing. You can't do anything with CDMA without their approval.

 

No reason for cdma/gsm.

The CDMA operators (Verizon and Sprint) are happy with and proud of their CDMA networks. The only companies with combo phones are those switching FROM tdma to GSM.

P

 

http://news.com.com/2100-1033-964607.html?tag=rn

Qualcomm's globe-trotting phone chip

By Ben Charny
Staff Writer, CNET News.com
November 5, 2002, 12:44 PM PT

Qualcomm has begun shipping a chip that enables a mobile phone to use almost any of the world's wireless networks, regardless of the communications standard it's based on.
The new MSM6300 chip, sent to manufacturers earlier this month, essentially allows for two phones in one, a Qualcomm representative said Tuesday.

The chip contains enough silicon to create phones capable of using networks built around the Code Division Multiple Access (CDMA) standard, as well as those based on the Global System for Mobile Communications (GSM) standard.

The two incompatible phone standards now power about 90 percent of the world's wireless networks. Most cell phones today are either CDMA or GSM, so a traveler who wants to do some wireless globe-trotting usually needs two different phones, phone plans and phone numbers.

The MSM6300 chip was made with those--mostly business--customers in mind, said Qualcomm representative Stacy Getz, including people shuttling regularly between the United States, where CDMA is the dominant standard, and Europe, where GSM is behind nearly every telephone network.

The new chip is among the biggest pushes yet by phone makers to create a single phone that can work anywhere. Most carriers are still taking half steps toward this goal, which is supposed to be a chief draw for luring corporate clients. Nextel Communications, for instance, still forces corporate clientele to buy two different phones to travel worldwide, however, the phones can now share the same number.

Qualcomm began shipping samples of the chip earlier this month to a number of cell phone makers, Getz said. She did not disclose what manufacturers have received the chips.

According to a source, Verizon Wireless plans to sell phones based on the MSM6300 chips once manufacturers have them ready. It's likely the phones could start appearing in the United States and elsewhere by the first half of 2003, the source said.

Getz did not comment on Verizon's plans, but said the nation's No. 1 carrier would be a good fit. Verizon uses CDMA in its telephone network in the United States, but the company is owned by Vodafone, one of the biggest GSM providers on the planet. Vodafone is reportedly pressuring Verizon Wireless to switch to GSM.

Verizon Wireless representative Brenda Raney wouldn't confirm the source's assertions, but indicated that plans to sell the "world phones" could be in the future. "We put pressure on our vendors to go to a one-handset solution for global roaming," Raney said.

Sprint PCS, KDDI in Japan and Bell Mobility in Canada are also said to be interested in selling phones using the MSM6300 chips, a source said. A Sprint PCS representative did not immediately return a call for comment. KDDI and Bell Mobility representatives could not be reached for comment.

 

Actually, with the World Cup in Korea this year, I believe it was made possible for European's to use their GSM sim cards in special CDMA phones. Not exactly CDMA/GSM phones, but similar.

Matt

 

Maybe not what your looking for but.......AT&T has the new Siemens M46 phone that is TDMA/GSM so you can use their extensive TDMA but with the great GSM features in GSM available areas. As far as I know this is the only phone of it's type with ATT and you have to activate the multiband network plan. Of course this is useless if you want CDMA. By the way, what's the main difference between CDMA and TDMA are they totally different, incompatible technologies? Thanks, I'm still learning.

 

CDMA and TDMA are very different, and incompatible. TDMA is a relatively open standard, while CDMA is covered by Qualcomm patents. Without getting too technical, CDMA is more advanced (more capabilities), and is more efficient. GSM is based on TDMA technology, but isn't backward-compatible.

BTW, the siemens phone is the S46, not M46. Nokia offers the 6340, which is a real GAIT phone, which does GSM, TDMA, and AMPS (S46 doesn't do AMPS and is not fully GAIT compliant). Ericsson is also offering a GAIT phone, the T62, IIRC. (BTW, GAIT is a spec for GSM/TDMA/AMPS phones).

 

The reason you will not see a dual mode GSM phone (except possibly from AT&T) has nothing to do with hardware technology, it is because of administrative systems.

The ANSI-41 (aka IS-41) standard defines how wireless companies communicate with each other when a customer is roaming. Suppose your home base is Chicago, you go to New York and originate a call. The New York company (probably Verizon) must go to a central database to determine who your home company is (probably Ameritech). It must then communicate with that home company to determine whether your account is active, not blocked nor closed. It must then decide how to route your call -- either through the PSTN (land lines, SS-7) or through wireless resouces. At the end of the call, the central site must notify your home company of call duration and it must handle intercompany billing between Verizon and Ameritech.

AMPS (analog), DAMPS (TDMA) and CDMA are very different electronically, but what they have in common is all 'American style' companies using them follow the ANSI-41 standard for intercommunication. They are on a single administrative network. This makes it feasible for a dual mode TDMA phone to originate a call in AMPS territory. GSM companies do not follow the standard. Because they are not connected to the 'ANSI-41 network', there is no way for a GSM company to look in the central database nor to communicate billing information to your home company. Further, GSM has no corresponding central administration. If you have a Nextel GSM phone home-based in Florida and take it to GSM territory in Albuquerque, there is a very good chance it would not work. If you don't believe me, look at GSM coverage maps. If GSM companies intercommunicated as well as ANSI-41 companies, all maps would be identical. They're not even close.

GSM uses TDMA to communicate from your phone to the tower. Thus building a dual mode GSM/TDMA phone is an engineering no-brainer -- they're almost identical at that level. The major differences are delivery of services and encryption. Differences are at the administrative level.

AT&T is a special case because it has an extensive in-place DAMPS network which is being converted to GSM. Communication of billing information between the AT&T's DAMPS network and its GSM network would be internal to AT&T. It would not have to go through a central administrator nor follow the ANSI-41 standard. For this reason, we *might* see an all-mode GSM/DAMPS offering from AT&T. But internal company politics & rivalry would probably make it fail.

I'm puzzled by the Qualcomm announcement because it makes no business sense. Although most engineers don't understand business issues, surely someone in Qualcomm does. Perhaps the engineers released the chip without consulting anyone. Perhaps it is cheaper to make one do-anything chip than many specialized ones.

For a low-cost $8/mo cellphone, check out Virgin Mobile. It's prepaid, no contract, no credit check. Unlike competitors, notably $17/mo AT&T, you will never lose money because you forgot to renew, nor will you ever run out of time. Replenishment is automatic. I think Cingular is the only other phone company offering this. Talk time costs .25/min for the first 10 minutes per day, then .10/min. That's flat rate. There is no distinction between prime time and night, no upsell to buy higher priced 'cards' (a dumb marketing gimmick), no roaming nor long-distance charges. It has text messaging, voicemail and all the usual features. Sprint is its carrier, so the phone works anywhere a Sprint GSM works. The only negative is the company will probably go out of business in two years, as they did in Singapore, where 75% of the adult population has a cellphone.

 

rwagner, you seem to be pretty knowledgeable for most of what you said makes perfect sense to me. However, I know that most of us have long days and sometimes we inadvertently enter the wrong information. Therefore, there are a couple of things that you said that prompted me to post this message:

1- Exactly where have you seen a Nextel GSM phone?
2- Exactly where does Sprint GSM works?

 

Ahhh Hello!?! Where have you been lately rwagner? Why do you think making 2 different standards communicate is impossible. Read below and you will see GSM-CDMA roaming has already been accomplished and the handsets are already available.

INTERSTANDARD ROAMING GOES GLOBAL AS FIRST GSM-CDMA AGREEMENT KICKS OFF IN KOREA

And there's much more

 

You are correct on both counts.

1. While in a Nextel store in Jacksonville, Fl, I saw posters mentioning GSM, jumped to the conclusion their network was GSM. Now I see it is 100% iDEN. Posters must have been promoting their dual mode iDEN/GSM handset from Motorola.

Nextel no longer sells prepaid but, FWIW, prepaid they were selling two years ago offered NO roaming outside Nextel Florida territory:

http://www.nextel.com/cgi-bin/localMarketMap.cgi?market=mkt21

2. Virgin Mobile in the US is 100% CDMA (Sprint). I thought it was GSM because the CEO, Schulman, said so in a magazine interview. It is worthwhile to note that Virgin phones cannot roam in analog territory. Virgin offers two phones: the CDMA-only Kyocera 2119b and the dual mode CDMA/AMPS Kyocera 2255. I was about to exchange my 2119b for a 2255 to get better coverage until I learned Sprint does not support analog billing to Virgin.

 

Thanks for the good insider information .. but ..
much of it is wishful thinking. For instance, one cite written last year says all networks are expected to intercommunicate by mid-2002. Now, six months after the expected completion date, we can count 'em on one and a half fingers -- Korea and Cingular's half-fast 'integration' of TDMA with ESM .. at .50/min. AT&T appears to be on the threshold, but only internally. The coverage map for AT&T GSM shows Carolinas and New York. They don't want to talk to other GSM companies.

US ESM companies don't communiate well with each other nor their Eureopean cousins because of politics, ego, lack of customer demand and lack of Standards. For roaming interconnection to be universal, we need an ISO Standard. Urging from the ESM folks doesn't cut it, nor do one-of-a-kind roaming agreements. Even this libertarian recognizes that laissez faire capitalism can produce inefficient systems, especially when national/global interests are at stake.

In 1998 I drove from Texas to Chicago with a works-anywhere analog cellphone. As soon as I entered Ameritech territory, I could not originate nor recieve calls. I thought no problem, Ameritech on the A channel, I'll switch to the B channel and get a company which treats customers right. Wrong. On the B channel was Ameritech branded as Cellular One. My Texas Cellular One phone did not work in Chicago Callular One territory. Why? Because of a stupid billing dispute between Ameritech and half the nation's analog cellphone companies.

When computer hackers deny us service, it's called an "attack". When telcos do the same, it's (shrug) exigiencies of business.

I have a question for you. I use wireless rarely when at a job site, usually about a year. I carry it in the car for emergencies. I reported a few accidents I witnessed, thankfully never had to call for help. When transitioning from one job to the next, which usually takes a month, I use it fairly heavily. I also use it when traveling on business, which isn't very often. My annual usage is about 1,000 minutes. I hate to pay $30/mo for a dormant phone, which is why I favor prepaid. I want to pay $7/mo when the phone is dormant and cost-is-no-object when I'm using it. Most importantly, I need a phone which works anywhere in the US -- some trips are to very remote places -- & will not fail when I need it because of some marketing gimmick. What do you recommend?

My preferences are:
AT&T
Cingular
Virgin (works only in cities)

 

Hey, if GAIT is possible, why not GSM-CDMA?

 

GAIT is proprietary to Cingular. It offers TDMA-GSM interoperability. It should offer ANSI-41 (AMPS)-GSM, should not be proprietary, should be defined in an ISO/ANSI Standard. Cingular's competitors will not adopt a Cingular Standard. They'll develop their own, leaving us with no Standard.

 

That is not true. It is an open standard, supported by ANSI and GSM alliance.



http://www.3gamericas.org/pdfs/gait-h-2-1-5-2.pdf

 

Thanks for the correction and detailed spec. I wonder how long it will take Verisign et al. to make GAIT available to all cellphone companies.

http://verisign.com/resources/wp/telecom/GSM.pdf

 

maybe he meant this about nextel?


http://nextelonline.nextel.com/phones_plans/phones/international1.shtml

 

Yeah, I know that, but he was talking about taking the phone from FL to Alburquerque. That's still in the US. Nextel GSM support is for overseas use only, not in the US.

 

Qualcomm does NOT control CDMA licensing...

http://denbeste.nu/cd_log_entries/2002/10/GSM3G.shtml

 

Where does WCDMA come into this mix? It seems I read somewhere recently that the GSM carriers would be starting to switch to this technology in 2004 for better high speed data capabilities.

 

WCDMA will be the third generation (3G) wireless technology in Europe, where it is mandated by law, and in the US for present TDMA and GSM companies. WCDMA (aka UMTS) runs at 2M bps .. at least for short distances. The growth path is GPRS (144K bps), already in place in some large cities, followed by EDGE (384K bps). Those two are called 2.5G.

Meanwhile, the CDMA people think they have a better solution in CDMA-2000. The first version, referred to technically as IS-95B and by marketing people as PCS Vision, is already in place in big cities, with better coverage than GPRS. It runs as 144K bps. The 3G step, called 1Xtreme, will run at either 614K bps, about 2M or 5.2M, depending on whom you believe.

Once again, we're going to have two incompatible 3G technologies which cannot communicate with each other.

As with most things, real-world performance will be 30-50% of the spec speed, so we'll get 1M, at best. When I try to send small, 72 p/in, compressed pictures through a 1M cable modem and internet infrastructure, I get between 2 and 5 frames per second. Lowering quality boosts the speed to 10 frames/sec. It looks like our 3G system will not be fast enough for "Picture Phone" animated video with acceptable quality and speed.