How will Nextel combine their network with Sprint's?

[larry]

According to some news releases out today Nextel would not rebuild their network with a new technology. Instead they would piggy back on Sprint's network (similar to what Qwest did) which would save them billions of dollars. Nextel would then gradually prod it's customers to switch handsets for new ones with Sprint technology.

I assume what would happen is that many of Nextel's towers/cell sites & equipment would be changed out to CDMA. Any areas where Nextel has service and Sprint doesn't (ie. Hwy 395 in California) would be transformed from Nextel coverage to Sprint coverage by changing out hardware and equipment.

[DandyDon]

Wirelessly posted (BlackBerry7510/3.7.2 UP.Browser/5.0.3.3 UP.Link/4.2.3.5h)

Yeah, I could see that happening. I wouldn't be surprised to see dual mode phones being introduced either. And QChat might be launched for Sprint which works CDMA with iDEN networks. It will be interesting to see how this merger will be executed, and the impact for Nextel customers.

[ZaphodB]

Dual-mode phones doing iDEN and CDMA would be expensive; expensive to the point where Sprintel would lose millions in handset subsidies. I don't think that will happen. Nevertheless, Nextel's brand loyalty is sacred and they daren't degrade Nextel performance until their customers switch to Sprint-type phones.

No, other than Sprint-to-Nextel and Nextel-to-Sprint calling being free, I don't see too many customer-facing improvements. Perhaps some coverage improvements due to ease of colocation (permits for Sprint towers could carry Nextel cells, for example), but this is obviously primarily a back-office merger.

[Bugwart]

It does seem to answer the question as to how Nextel will offer high speed data service in the future. It looks like it will be via CDMA2000 rather than Flarion.

[larry]

Originally Posted by ZaphodB Dual-mode phones doing iDEN and CDMA would be expensive; expensive to the point where Sprintel would lose millions in handset subsidies. I don't think that will happen. Nevertheless, Nextel's brand loyalty is sacred and they daren't degrade Nextel performance until their customers switch to Sprint-type phones. No, other than Sprint-to-Nextel and Nextel-to-Sprint calling being free, I don't see too many customer-facing improvements. Perhaps some coverage improvements due to ease of colocation (permits for Sprint towers could carry Nextel cells, for example), but this is obviously primarily a back-office merger.

I think there will be some significant coverage improvements from this deal for us Sprint users (regardless of how long it might take). In areas where Nextel has service and Sprint doesn't Sprint will have to take over those towers and convert them to CDMA giving us a larger coverage area. Most of Hwy 58 between Bakersfield and Barstow is a good example of this. In return Nextel users will have the benefit of better coverage along I-40 bewteen Barstow and Flagstaff, AZ where Sprint has better coverage.

[Fire14]

This may be part of there way to satisfy the FCC's requirement to get off the 800 band & switch to the 1900, with less cost then originally expected & Sprint would end up with more spectrum that Nextel is getting.

[MUHillbilly]

I'm thinking of actually upgrading my Nextel phone here in a few weeks, am I wasting my money b/c of the merger or should I go ahead and buy it?

Also, are Nextel users going to lose out on this deal b/c of Sprint taking over their towers?

[larry]

No why would you think Nextel users might lose out? Nextel's towers along with Sprint's will ultimately be combined together (one way or another) so that coverage will be better for all of us.

[Gman]

Originally Posted by MUHillbilly I'm thinking of actually upgrading my Nextel phone here in a few weeks, am I wasting my money b/c of the merger or should I go ahead and buy it? Also, are Nextel users going to lose out on this deal b/c of Sprint taking over their towers?

Of course everything we are saying is conjecture but I would wait for some sort of detailed press release from the companies (assuming they come to an agreement). They might speak of their technologic plans in the press release since network integration is a question on most public and analysts minds. If they are going to implement QChat in a reasonable timeframe it might be worth waiting for.

As an aside, related to the integration of ATT/Cingular- my friend lost her phone and they won't let her get a new one (Razr) until her account is transferred to Cingular from ATT. But wait, they can't seem to get it transferred. She must also switch to a more expensive plan ($10) with fewer minutes (100). in order to go over to Cingular

G.

[bobolito]

We are all speculating about combining Nextel/Sprint networks but we are ignoring one major problem: You can't put CDMA on Nextel's spectrum. The only spectrum Sprint will be able to take advantage of will be the G block 1900Mhz and even that's not a standard block. All existing SPCS equipment is not equipped to handle the G block. It isn't like as soon as the merger happens all Sprint has to do is convert Nextel towers to CDMA. It doesn't work that way. Sprint will have to install CDMA equipment using their OWN spectrum, not Nextel's, for the benefit of all Sprint/Virgin/Qwest/etc. customers. So they can do this even without the merger because it is an expansion, not a combination of networks. They can't combine networks because of the incompatibility in both the technology and spectrum. As I said, they can't put CDMA on SMR spectrum because it is against the FCC rules. And if Sprint begins to use the yet-to-be-awarded G block to Nextel, only after customers change to a new phone that is able to use the G block will they see some benefit. Nextel doesn't even have the G block yet. So whatever happens will be years away. So let's come back to reality guys. It's not going to be that easy.

[Gman]

Originally Posted by bobolito We are all speculating about combining Nextel/Sprint networks but we are ignoring one major problem: You can't put CDMA on Nextel's spectrum. The only spectrum Sprint will be able to take advantage of will be the G block 1900Mhz and even that's not a standard block. All existing SPCS equipment is not equipped to handle the G block. It isn't like as soon as the merger happens all Sprint has to do is convert Nextel towers to CDMA. It doesn't work that way. Sprint will have to install CDMA equipment using their OWN spectrum, not Nextel's, for the benefit of all Sprint/Virgin/Qwest/etc. customers. So they can do this even without the merger because it is an expansion, not a combination of networks. They can't combine networks because of the incompatibility in both the technology and spectrum. As I said, they can't put CDMA on SMR spectrum because it is against the FCC rules. And if Sprint begins to use the yet-to-be-awarded G block to Nextel, only after customers change to a new phone that is able to use the G block will they see some benefit. Nextel doesn't even have the G block yet. So whatever happens will be years away. So let's come back to reality guys. It's not going to be that easy.

I don't think it is going to be easy at all. However, I am sure they have a plan and I'll be interested to hear what it is. The most direct benefit for Sprint users will be co-location on Nextel towers. That's separate antennas, separate spectrum, just coverage where they need it.

[larry]

Agreed. Sprint can easily co-locate their equipment on exsisting Nextel towers to provide coverage in areas that Sprint has either been struggling to gain approvals for due to NIMBY"s and new zoning restrictions or simply felt it wasn't in their budget in the past. One great example of this is Hwy 395 here in CA.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Gman Of course everything we are saying is conjecture but I would wait for some sort of detailed press release from the companies (assuming they come to an agreement). They might speak of their technologic plans in the press release since network integration is a question on most public and analysts minds. If they are going to implement QChat in a reasonable timeframe it might be worth waiting for. G.

Even so, a merger of networks won't begin until after a merger (if announced) is completed, and that would be 6-9 months away at least. You could upgrade now and be in line to upgrade again soon after a meger would be complete. This won't be as easy as the Cingular/ATT merger, where they could begin to combine networks before the merger was completed (free roaming) since they are both GSM. Sprint-Nextel would have no incentive to invest in a new network until the proper approvals were received from the Gov't.

[TKR]

Originally Posted by Fire14 This may be part of there way to satisfy the FCC's requirement to get off the 800 band & switch to the 1900, with less cost then originally expected & Sprint would end up with more spectrum that Nextel is getting.

Nextel "retains" 6 MHz of cellular band:
http://www.dailywireless.org/modules...ticle&sid=1605

Correction - it appears from the read there is another 10 Hz in the 800 band that isn't part of the swap, so they retain 16 total in the 800 band.

[TKR]

Originally Posted by bobolito They can't combine networks because of the incompatibility in both the technology and spectrum. As I said, they can't put CDMA on SMR spectrum because it is against the FCC rules.

But doesn't that all change with the spectrum swap deal? (SMR goes away - the experiment has failed)

In any case, why in the world would the FCC care whether the technology is CDMA, TDMA, IDEN, or AMPS? That is retarded (on the part of the FCC). There is nothing "incompatible" with CDMA at 800 MHz!

[bobolito]

TKR, the problem is more complicated than it seems. First of all, the spectrum swap deal doesn't mean Nextel is giving up all its SMR spectrum as stated in the posts above. They will have some SMR spectrum and will get some PCS spectrum in the new G block. The problem is that all these frequencies are incompatible with current CDMA phones and base stations for several reasons. One is that current CDMA phones were designed to find towers only within the PCS A through F blocks and in the Cellular A and B blocks. Nextels SMR spectrum and the new G block are all outside those ranges and current phones cannot pick up any of those frequencies. So that means new phones will need to be put up for sale that will take advantage of these new frequencies. Secondly, the SMR spectrum is not licensed in blocks like Cellular and PCS. SMR is licensed per channel. So that means each channel of whatever transmitter you use has to be 25khz wide as per FCC rules. The problem is CDMA uses channels that are much more wider than that. So putting CDMA on SMR frequencies goes against FCC rules. Finally, even if the FCC allows CDMA in the SMR spectrum, new base station equipment will have to be redesigned so that it can transmit and receive in these new non-standard frequencies. Now, even though this rule doesn't apply to the PCS G block, the same goes for it because it is a non-standard PCS block. So basically, the entire structure has to be reworked.

Now, this doesn't mean that CDMA cannot be put there. You can put CDMA in any frequency you like. However, as said previously, this means that none of the current phones can use those new frequencies because there are no CDMA phones that can scan in the G PCS block or in the SMR band because they were only designed to scan in the original Cellular and PCS frequencies to begin with. So unless those phones are changed so that they can receive and transmit in these new frequencies, millions of customers cannot use those new frequencies.

So in all honesty, what I believe they will do is keep iDEN in the SMR band just for PTT service. One thing that is clear to me is that they cannot get rid of iDEN any time soon. Nextel is making a lot of money from it right now and high paying business clients want to have PTT especially when there is no rivaling technology at this time. ReadyLink, PoC and all these other PTT-wannabes are just jokes at this point when compared to iDEN's PTT. They can't match the reliability and robustness of iDEN at this time. Maybe in the future some rival technologies will come. But at this point there isn't any. The other thing I can see them doing is start selling broadband data service using the G block and keep voice service in standard Sprint PCS spectrum bands freeing up the SMR band for PTT traffic only through iDEN. That just what seems more realistic to me. Nonetheless, it's just my 2 cents. Given this scenario, the possibility of an iDEN/CDMA phone would not be too far off. I'm sure it would be in Motorola's best interest to come up with such a product if the plans turn out to be like that.

[jones]

This is not like the AWE/Cingular where both are using the same Technology.

The only advantage here besides Tower Co-location
will be the free Network Calling between Sprint and Nextel.

[larry]

Originally Posted by jones This is not like the AWE/Cingular where both are using the same Technology. The only advantage here besides Tower Co-location will be the free Network Calling between Sprint and Nextel.

But those are two very big advantages to have for us Sprint users. Sprint will now be able to easily co-locate their antennas on Nextels towers in some key areas where as in the past there would have been lots of red tape involved and it wouldn't have been in their budget to do so. This could start to happen as soon as the FCC gives final approval (6-9 months) or maybe even sooner.

Free network calling between 39 million people is also a lot better than only 23 million people.

[TKR]

Thanks for the feedback - that all makes sense. I'd like to think Sprint-Nextel would eventually want to migrate all spectrum to CDMA and grab some of that 800 spectrum for regular phone customers, not just PTT.

Originally Posted by bobolito TKR, the problem is more complicated than it seems. First of all, the spectrum swap deal doesn't mean Nextel is giving up all its SMR spectrum as stated in the posts above. They will have some SMR spectrum and will get some PCS spectrum in the new G block. The problem is that all these frequencies are incompatible with current CDMA phones and base stations for several reasons. One is that current CDMA phones were designed to find towers only within the PCS A through F blocks and in the Cellular A and B blocks. Nextels SMR spectrum and the new G block are all outside those ranges and current phones cannot pick up any of those frequencies. So that means new phones will need to be put up for sale that will take advantage of these new frequencies. Secondly, the SMR spectrum is not licensed in blocks like Cellular and PCS. SMR is licensed per channel. So that means each channel of whatever transmitter you use has to be 25khz wide as per FCC rules. The problem is CDMA uses channels that are much more wider than that. So putting CDMA on SMR frequencies goes against FCC rules. Finally, even if the FCC allows CDMA in the SMR spectrum, new base station equipment will have to be redesigned so that it can transmit and receive in these new non-standard frequencies. Now, even though this rule doesn't apply to the PCS G block, the same goes for it because it is a non-standard PCS block. So basically, the entire structure has to be reworked. Now, this doesn't mean that CDMA cannot be put there. You can put CDMA in any frequency you like. However, as said previously, this means that none of the current phones can use those new frequencies because there are no CDMA phones that can scan in the G PCS block or in the SMR band because they were only designed to scan in the original Cellular and PCS frequencies to begin with. So unless those phones are changed so that they can receive and transmit in these new frequencies, millions of customers cannot use those new frequencies. So in all honesty, what I believe they will do is keep iDEN in the SMR band just for PTT service. One thing that is clear to me is that they cannot get rid of iDEN any time soon. Nextel is making a lot of money from it right now and high paying business clients want to have PTT especially when there is no rivaling technology at this time. ReadyLink, PoC and all these other PTT-wannabes are just jokes at this point when compared to iDEN's PTT. They can't match the reliability and robustness of iDEN at this time. Maybe in the future some rival technologies will come. But at this point there isn't any. The other thing I can see them doing is start selling broadband data service using the G block and keep voice service in standard Sprint PCS spectrum bands freeing up the SMR band for PTT traffic only through iDEN. That just what seems more realistic to me. Nonetheless, it's just my 2 cents. Given this scenario, the possibility of an iDEN/CDMA phone would not be too far off. I'm sure it would be in Motorola's best interest to come up with such a product if the plans turn out to be like that.

[ehcruzan]

Originally Posted by bobolito One thing that is clear to me is that they cannot get rid of iDEN any time soon. Nextel is making a lot of money from it right now and high paying business clients want to have PTT especially when there is no rivaling technology at this time. ReadyLink, PoC and all these other PTT-wannabes are just jokes at this point when compared to iDEN's PTT. They can't match the reliability and robustness of iDEN at this time. Maybe in the future some rival technologies will come. But at this point there isn't any.

That's why Nextel, Motorola and Qualcomm invented QChat. According to Nextel's press releases when the technology was announced, it offers the benefits of iDEN PTT over CDMA.

Originally Posted by bobolito TKR, the problem is more complicated than it seems. First of all, the spectrum swap deal doesn't mean Nextel is giving up all its SMR spectrum as stated in the posts above. They will have some SMR spectrum and will get some PCS spectrum in the new G block. The problem is that all these frequencies are incompatible with current CDMA phones and base stations for several reasons. One is that current CDMA phones were designed to find towers only within the PCS A through F blocks and in the Cellular A and B blocks. Nextels SMR spectrum and the new G block are all outside those ranges and current phones cannot pick up any of those frequencies. So that means new phones will need to be put up for sale that will take advantage of these new frequencies. Secondly, the SMR spectrum is not licensed in blocks like Cellular and PCS. SMR is licensed per channel. So that means each channel of whatever transmitter you use has to be 25khz wide as per FCC rules. The problem is CDMA uses channels that are much more wider than that. So putting CDMA on SMR frequencies goes against FCC rules. Finally, even if the FCC allows CDMA in the SMR spectrum, new base station equipment will have to be redesigned so that it can transmit and receive in these new non-standard frequencies. Now, even though this rule doesn't apply to the PCS G block, the same goes for it because it is a non-standard PCS block. So basically, the entire structure has to be reworked. Now, this doesn't mean that CDMA cannot be put there. You can put CDMA in any frequency you like. However, as said previously, this means that none of the current phones can use those new frequencies because there are no CDMA phones that can scan in the G PCS block or in the SMR band because they were only designed to scan in the original Cellular and PCS frequencies to begin with. So unless those phones are changed so that they can receive and transmit in these new frequencies, millions of customers cannot use those new frequencies.

Remember Nextel users will need new phones in any event as the goal is to move Nextel customers over to the upcoming EV-DO network. Motorola can make CDMA/iDEN phones as you mentioned so as to ease the transition and incorporate the G Block in these devices. Like you said, it would be in Motorola's best interest.

[TKR]

Interesting facts came out in the news conference.

They will:
1) Maintain/improve IDEN for the near term. Migrate non-PTT voice to CDMA as quickly as possible. Maintain IDEN for "PTT centric" customers for medium term.
2) Quickly use Nextel 800 spectrum/sites for CDMA voice to improve overall coverage along with existing 1900 CDMA network.
3) Longer term, develop PTT on EVDO Rev A.

Dual Mode handsets will be developed for market in about a year.

[Rich]

Bottom line, this was the smartest and most cost effective move for both companies. You can dissect it all you want, but it sounds to me like Nextel and Sprint were planning this for a while, and together they will be quite the powerhouse.

[larry]

Originally Posted by TKR Interesting facts came out in the news conference. They will: 1) Maintain/improve IDEN for the near term. Migrate non-PTT voice to CDMA as quickly as possible. Maintain IDEN for "PTT centric" customers for medium term. 2) Quickly use Nextel 800 spectrum/sites for CDMA voice to improve overall coverage along with existing 1900 CDMA network. 3) Longer term, develop PTT on EVDO Rev A. Dual Mode handsets will be developed for market in about a year.

Yep just read all about it. This should help silence the critics on Howards who claimed that there wouldn't be any coverage improvements from this deal.

[bobolito]

Since this deal will add 800Mhz to Sprint's network, maybe this will silence those critics who claim there isn't any difference in building penetration between the two bands.

However, as I said before in repeated occasions, there isn't going to be any IMMEDIATE improvements from this deal. Notice the word IMMEDIATE which means "in the short term." Once again, I said there won't be any immediate, prompt or quick coverage improvements, as in a few days following the merger.

By the way, did I say there won't be any IMMEDIATE coverage improvements with this deal? I wonder if I got my point across.

[larry]

But I've never disputed the "IMMEDIATE" thing Bobolito. I'm just stating that there will be coverage improvements from this deal. I don't care if it happens now or 2 years from now and have not tried to make any real predictions on when it will happen. But it will. Sure I would like to have it happen sooner but am willing to wait for it.

[ZaphodB]

Hm... "Sprint PCS" is no longer appropriate, since they'll have a little bit of 800 MHz.

[larry]

True but I think the whole "PCS" thing is old anyway and it's time to drop that. In fact they already have dropped it for the most part.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by ZaphodB Hm... "Sprint PCS" is no longer appropriate, since they'll have a little bit of 800 MHz.

Nice catch.....

[DandyDon]

Wirelessly posted (BlackBerry7510/3.7.2 UP.Browser/5.0.3.3 UP.Link/4.2.3.5h)

Duh, they announced the name change to Sprint Nextel

Anyway a dual mode handset was probably in the works anyway as Nextel was going to ween people off the iDEN network anyway. In addition Nextel bought QChat a while ago and has used it for CDMA to iDEN PTT coversations from here to overseas.

The MMDS spectrum the two will own for future data offerings hasn't been discussed, that will just add a new dimension of services down the road.

[ZaphodB]

Originally Posted by DandyDon Wirelessly posted (BlackBerry7510/3.7.2 UP.Browser/5.0.3.3 UP.Link/4.2.3.5h) Duh, they announced the name change to Sprint Nextel

Duh, Sprint is a larger company than just Sprint PCS. The merger was between FON and NXTL, not between the SPCS division and NXTL. The website, last I checked abouttwosecondsago was still www.sprintpcs.com...