Cell Phones Disrupt Some Police Radios

[Yankees368]

http://www.optonline.net/Your_Comput...cle%3D10782170

Cell Phones Disrupt Some Police Radios
Mon Apr 5, 10:04 PM


WASHINGTON - The proliferation of cell phones is having potentially dangerous consequences for firefighters and police officers, who in some places can't use their radios to call for help because of interference from cell signals.

The Boston suburb of Cambridge, Mass., is one of those areas. Last fall, an officer responding to a fight at an apartment had to walk to the other side of the high-rise to call for backup. Another time, an officer responding to a burglar alarm couldn't call for help as he approached the building.

In both incidents, the delays didn't cause any major problems for officers. But the potential is there, said Cambridge Fire Chief Gerald Reardon, who oversees the city's entire public safety radio system.

"If equipment needs to be repaired or upgraded, we have no problem doing that," he said. "This is beyond our control. It's a worry."

Ernest Mitchell, president of the International Association of Fire Chiefs, was more pessimistic.

"Thankfully, no one has died," said Mitchell, who is fire chief in Pasadena, Calif. "But it's only a matter of time."

Radios used by police, firefighters and other first responders broadcast on the same 800 megahertz broadcast spectrum as cell phones. So, for example, if a radio dispatch is made at 850 MHz near a cell tower broadcasting at 851 MHz, the radio signal can get drowned out.

It's unclear how many municipalities are affected, but the problem is serious enough that police and firefighters have been urging the government to come up with a fix. Federal regulators are expected to do that in the next few weeks.

Still, a battle is raging within the cell phone industry over what the government should do. The issue isn't just about what works best. Money - billions of dollars - also is a consideration.

On one side of the cell phone debate is Nextel Communications, whose frequencies are interspersed among those belonging to public safety. Its phones cause the most interference.

Nextel was assigned the frequencies by the Federal Communications Commission prior to the cell phone boom, when it was thought the 800 MHz spectrum could handle public safety and cell phone needs.

On the other side is the rest of the wireless industry - including the trade group that counts Nextel as a member - as well as some municipalities and electric utilities that broadcast over the 800 MHz band, and the government watchdog groups National Taxpayers Union and Citizens Against Government Waste.

The Nextel-backed plan would divide the 800 MHz band, giving one section to public safety agencies and another to cell companies. That idea is backed by various national law enforcement groups, as well as Mitchell's fire chiefs association.

Opponents want to leave the spectrum alone, but require each company that causes interference to eliminate it at its own cost within 60 days after a public safety agency reports a problem.

The Nextel plan would be extremely lucrative for the company, while the competing proposal could cost it a significant amount.

The FCC staff has studied the problem and recommended the commissioners vote for the Nextel plan, according to an FCC official who spoke on condition of anonymity.

FCC Commissioner Kathleen Abernathy recently said she likes that idea. "There's just too much potential for public safety issues if we don't reband," she said.

Nextel has offered to pay $850 million to retune public safety radios once the spectrum is reallocated. In return, the company would get additional spectrum worth about $3 billion, according to the brokerage firm Legg Mason Wood Walker.

Nextel spokeswoman Leigh Horner said reallocation is the only solution that would permanently fix the problem, and her company is being fairly compensated for giving up some spectrum.

"It's an issue about public safety," Horner said.

But Travis Larson, a spokesman for the Cellular Telecommunications and Internet Association, the wireless industry's trade group, said reallocation would take years while the alternative would fix any problems as they pop up.

"This plan aims to eliminate public safety radio interference immediately - within 60 days of it being reported - while the Nextel-backed plan takes over 3 1/2 years to do the same job," Larson said. "Interference is a serious problem and our police officers and firefighters deserve a serious and immediate solution."

[MrFlashport]

Not news, I deal with it daily in my profession.

I back the CTIA plan, resolving interference on a case-by-case basis is the way we have done it for over 70 years, and why should it change just because of Nextel's arrogance and poor businesss decisions?

Oh, wait...because Nextel would basically have to shut down 90 percent of their dirty noise-emitting pico-cells and go back to being an ESMR like they were originally licensed for....

hence why they are pushing the "scam" plan as I (and others) call it.

Glad to see this has finally made the mass media give it the much needed airtime. The word is slowly but surely getting out about how serious this is to us in the public safety and emergency response world.

[ILUVSOCAL]

It's news to me, I've never heard of cell phones causing a problem with public safety here in Lake and Mendocino Counties in Nor Cal, or any other Northern California counties, like Shasta, Siskiyou, Colusa, Glenn, Butte and Humboldt. Maybe our low population has something to do with it.

[NokiaKrazy]

Yes this is a problem! I have been aware of this for several years now. Luckily my county uses VHF. (150-174 band). We have numberous mountains and valleys. 800 would not work very well here. I've heard that 800 mhz is stopped by pine needles for some odd reason. Nextel is here in this area and no problems with my equiptment.

[ILUVSOCAL]

That must be what they use here too Nokia, tons of mountains, hills, valleys and canyons here, and a lot of Pine, Oak and Redwood trees (some of the Redwoods can top 300-500 feet!).

[NokiaKrazy]

Yes they do use mostly VHF in Mendocino County,CA. I just briefly looked at the radio licenses of Public Safety in your county. They are in the 150-174 range. Except for the Ukiah Fire Dept is on UHF 450. Honestly, UHF 450 works better in areas like yours and mine.

[ComicalMoodyDan]

Originally posted by: ILUVSOCAL
It's news to me, I've never heard of cell phones causing a problem with public safety here in Lake and Mendocino Counties in Nor Cal, or any other Northern California counties, like Shasta, Siskiyou, Colusa, Glenn, Butte and Humboldt. Maybe our low population has something to do with it.

That's because you don't have Nextel in your area. Nextel is pretty much the only one causing this problem. I remember in my area they had to adjust a Nextel site because it was right across the street from a fire station and it was interfering with there equipment.

[ILUVSOCAL]

No they don't, thankfully! That beep, beep, then listening to both sides of a LOUD conversation is the most annoying thing!! Nextel has talked about getting service up here, but right now, there is no Nextel service from Cloverdale in Sonoma County well into Southern Oregon. Actually, a huge amount of Nor Cal has no Nextel service.

[ehcruzan]

Originally posted by: ILUVSOCAL
No they don't, thankfully! That beep, beep, then listening to both sides of a LOUD conversation is the most annoying thing!! Nextel has talked about getting service up here, but right now, there is no Nextel service from Cloverdale in Sonoma County well into Southern Oregon. Actually, a huge amount of Nor Cal has no Nextel service.

Just wait until Cingular launches their P2T. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

[ILUVSOCAL]

Yeah, ugh lol

[bobolito]

Considering that GSM and CDMA carriers will not use iDEN for P2T there will not be interference problems with public safety system. However, the biggest problem with Nextel and the public safety systems is not their P2T, it is their iDEN channels signalling interleaved with public safety channels which is a known recipe for disaster.

[Fire14]

I too have been lucky with this, we run on a 500 Mhz EDACS system and don't have a problem from it. I do read in all the trade magazines that it has been a big problem for mainly big cities, and they have been pushing hard to get something done. Personally i would like to see the FCC give new spectrum to the cell companies to prevent these problems since it is my brothers that could be indanger. What i really would like to see is the give the 900 band that was allocated for pagers since they are a real dying breed and the last 2 companies are merging.

[Yankees368]

Where can you find out what your local police/fire use?

[Fire14]

Originally posted by: Yankees368
Where can you find out what your local police/fire use?

The FCC's Web site, or do a search for Scanner frequencies and check your area. Remember this issue is with Nextel and no known issues are with other companies at this time.

[ILUVSOCAL]

I guess we're safe then, the closest Nextel signal to us is 40 miles away [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

[bobolito]

Originally posted by: Fire14

The FCC's Web site, or do a search for Scanner frequencies and check your area. Remember this issue is with Nextel and no known issues are with other companies at this time.

Yes. There's actually two problems that cause interference on public systems,

1) iDEN signalling is too noisy/dirty. Much more than GSM and TDMA. Anyone that places a Nextel phone in the vicinity of a TV/Radio can see this.

2) Nextel channels are too close to those of the public systems. Other 800Mhz carriers don't have their channels sitting right next to public safety channels. Only Nextel sits right next to them because they are all mixed in the same SMR band.

[ShoresGuy]

Originally posted by: ILUVSOCAL
It's news to me, I've never heard of cell phones causing a problem with public safety here in Lake and Mendocino Counties in Nor Cal, or any other Northern California counties, like Shasta, Siskiyou, Colusa, Glenn, Butte and Humboldt. Maybe our low population has something to do with it.

This could be a serious problem for the San Francisco (Motorola Astro system), Oakland (GE Ericsson system) and Alameda County Fire Departments (Motorola system). They use 800 Mhz based trunked radio systems as these are up in the 866-868 Mhz range which IIRC is close to the range that Nextel uses (864 Mhz or something like that). San Mateo County is mostly VHF and UHF for FD and PD but the Sheriff's Department is moving to 800 Mhz as well.

[MrFlashport]

To add to Boblito's comments, which are dead on, Nextel's pico-cell network expansion is what really brought out the worst of iDEN versus high site trunked radio on adjacent channels. Their sites are placed close together so they can offer good in-building penetration- ideal for a cellular carrier on a cellular band but not on ESMR/public safety band which they chose to use. Their high powered pico cells overload our radios and make them deaf to our own systems on 800MHz.

Not all public safety is on the 800 band, most rural and outer areas are still on VHF and UHF conventional radio. Motorola has been shoving trunking down our throats for the past 12 years as the end all solution. Is it not ironic that they are also the creator of iDEN which is the biggest thorn in our side...

We didn't have these problems when we had a UHF (460MHz) conventional system.

I would advise any agency considering switching to 800MHz not to do so until Nextel cleans up the band (hopefully they will leave soon) otherwise you are asking for trouble and you are putting your mission critical users (police and fire) at risk. If the Nextel Scam Plan is adopted, don't expect much change to the problem...

[NYCDru]

Originally posted by: MrFlashport
To add to Boblito's comments, which are dead on, Nextel's pico-cell network expansion is what really brought out the worst of iDEN versus high site trunked radio on adjacent channels. Their sites are placed close together so they can offer good in-building penetration- ideal for a cellular carrier on a cellular band but not on ESMR/public safety band which they chose to use. Their high powered pico cells overload our radios and make them deaf to our own systems on 800MHz.

Not all public safety is on the 800 band, most rural and outer areas are still on VHF and UHF conventional radio. Motorola has been shoving trunking down our throats for the past 12 years as the end all solution. Is it not ironic that they are also the creator of iDEN which is the biggest thorn in our side...

We didn't have these problems when we had a UHF (460MHz) conventional system.

I would advise any agency considering switching to 800MHz not to do so until Nextel cleans up the band (hopefully they will leave soon) otherwise you are asking for trouble and you are putting your mission critical users (police and fire) at risk. If the Nextel Scam Plan is adopted, don't expect much change to the problem...

Hey, PM mne with more info on this issue will ya. I would like to get a little more background on the problem.

[DandyDon]

Originally posted by: Fire14
Remember this issue is with Nextel and no known issues are with other companies at this time.

Really? Check your facts.

The Nextel Scam Plan, as it's called, will hopefully be ruled on by the end of next week.

Does nobody see the FCC at fault? Such haters [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]

[ILUVSOCAL]

Since we have no Nextel here, and the police, fire, etc. all operate on the 150-174 and 450 in this area, looks like this won't be a problem for our services, thankfully [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

[MrFlashport]

Hey Dandy Don,

check out http://www.apcointl.org/frequency/pr...9/combined.txt

if you run the numbers, around 95 percent of the reported interference to our 800MHz radio systems are caused by NEXTEL and their cruddy noisy iDEN system.

So, I ask again (as I did at CTIA to a Nextel rep a few weeks ago):

When the Scam Plan, if so adopted by the bought and paid for FCC, FAILS to live up to these promises (which, IMO, it will- based on my 20 years of RF experience)...what then?

I have asked this question time and time again to the Nextel/Pro scam plan folks and they always have their "hit and run" response or never answer....

Oh, and, NTIA recently joined the CTIA and folks like myself in the public safety radio biz who aren't brain dead and blasted the Scam Plan calling it "a slap in the fact to first responders who depend on reliable radio systems to carry out their duties"...so apparently those at the Federal level (NTIA) aren't all dumb and deaf (by Nextel and their under the table payoffs) like the FCC is...

(for those who don't know who NTIA is, they are the arm of the Federal gov't that manages and regulates all telecom for our Federal government)

So I guess the NTIA are Nextel haters too...well, I am glad to have them on my side, along with CTIA.

Again, anyone on the pro-Scam Plan/Nextel side care to answer my question?

Here it is in case you missed it:

What contingency plan is their in place should the "Concensus Plan" fail to cease interference by Nextel if it so adopted?

DEAD AIR....DONE...

[Fire14]

Originally posted by: DandyDon

Really? Check your facts. The Nextel Scam Plan, as it's called, will hopefully be ruled on by the end of next week. Does nobody see the FCC at fault? Such haters [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]

I do know that the problem is mainly with Nextel, they have a frequency that was granted by the FCC this is in the middle of the public safety band, prior to giving the frequencies to Public Safety. Where your other frequencies are slightly above these frequencies. I could send you numerous articles on this issue in Firehouse Magazine, Fire Enginering Magazine, Jems, & EMS magazines and numerous other trade magazines that show it's with Nextel. Being a FF i have been hearing and keeping up with this problem.

[Fire14]

Looks like the FCC is going to give them the new Frequencies, but it will cost Nextel more money

http://wireless.ittoolbox.com/news/d...s.asp?i=112980

I don't know why this link didn't post before. Sorry about that.

[MrFlashport]

with Verizon offering 5 billion for the PCS blocks, now Nextel is gonna have to do something else to try and get some free radio real estate to relocate their noisy tenants...I love it. this whole debacle is their own fault, but then, like all scams, schemes and frauds and anything built on lies and deception, it falls in one itself. The truth always prevails in the end.

Can you hear me now Nextel...so says Verizon

[DandyDon]

lol

If the website NextelSucks had a poster child I bet you'd be it. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]

[MrFlashport]

You know, DandyDon, those one liners are great, but you nor any pro-scam plan cheerleaders have yet to answer my questions:

What contingency plan is in place should the Concensus Plan (aka Scam Plan) adopted and it not work?

Who will then pay?

Why hasn't some independent panel of persons such as myself who recieve no "donations" or "gifts" from Nextel (aka the Public Safety Foundation...god what an insult to us) who is well versed in iDEN, RFI, etc been contacted for a REAL "Concensus" plan?

Why should Nextel (or ANYONE) be rewarded for their blatant interference to our life safety radio systems?

Again, instead of cute one liners, personal attacks, name calling, etc....how about some hard answers to these questions.

The silence is deafening and people copy it LOUD AND CLEAR (despite the iDEN interference to our radios from Nextel).

(and for the record, the Nextelsucks webpage is yet another forum for those dissatisfied with Nextel's service. I have used Nextel in the past and have no issue with their service. It is their companies business practices regarding stepping over my radio system and the other 22,000 800MHz public safety systems and their attitude that I have a serious issue with.)

[WirelessBeachBum]

Originally posted by: DandyDon
lol

If the website NextelSucks had a poster child I bet you'd be it. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]

One liners are fun...so Dandydon you would be the poster child for sucknextel.org.....

(Sorry dandydon it was in my head it had to come out.)

DandyDon, thanks for the link, I just wasted thirty minutes of my life reading the webmasters story...that kind of crap is typical of the wireless industry in general..actually telecommunications in general and the biggest problem is outsourced call centers...

I had a similar problem with a collection agency recently, they said I had an account that was over a year old and transfered to them for payment. I did have an account with this company but it was less than four months old.

I tried to explain it to the collections rep, but only got called names...I went up from supervisor to supervisor all telling me that I had to pay or they would hit the collections agencies that night.

I sent a letter of dispute to the owners of the original company, the collection agency as well as the FTC....I received an apology the next day from both companies involved.

[Yankees368]

More on this topic:

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/09/te...gy/09wire.html

[NYCDru]

I like this guys veiws on this issue.