Americas Most Wanted....

[Rich]

Today on AMW they had some interesting things to say regarding interference problem, and specifically pointing out Nextel. Did anyone else see it? Here's the link to AMW web site to help adopt the Consensus Plan. What do you guys think, I didn't realize how bad this is getting.

Americas Most Wanted

Check this link out also!!!

[MrFlashport]

Yes, Rich, that what I have been saying, as well as others in the 911 business. Nextel has been blasting us off the air with their noisemakers and the FCC doesn't care. There was great error and misinformation in the report (as usual, to be expected from mass media when reporting on stuff they know nothing about), so let's clarify:

1)- The concensus plan benefits Nextel by giving them contiguous spectrum. Worth billions more than their hodgepodge of licences spread out all over the 800 SMR band they have now.

2)-It calls for public safety to re-arrange all 22,000 plus systems from where they are now to the bottom of the 800 band, from 851-863MHz. There will be a 1MHz "guard band" then you guessed it, Nextel gets 865-870, 5MHz of continous spectrum JUST FOR THEM. And, because they are being such "good guys" by donating up to 100 million to shuffle everyone around, they also want first dibs at some PCS 1.9 and the soon to be created 2.1GHz band, free.

The theory is that by moving Nextel a few MHz one way or another on the 800 band will somehow magically make this harmful interference cease. This has not been proven, and it may not work well if at all. Not to mention the monumental cost to taxpayers. In our agency alone, we have 3 sites, with 21 repeaters on each, combiners, 48 remote recievers with multicouplers...oh and around 3200 radios that would have to be reprogrammed, tuned and aligned. We are talking THOUSANDS of manhours of labor, and keep in mind, there is the logistical problem of keeping the system online while doing it. You expect us to answer and respond to 911 calls 24/7/365 right? Well, we need tools that work those hours too. And our system is just one of 22,000 on 800MHz in the US. This is no easy task. It is costly, time consuming, will put officer safety at risk while it is being done, as it will further cripple the system they depend on.

And it MAY NOT WORK.

Bad deal if you ask me. My solution? Nextel needs to go back to being an SMR, turn off sites that cause harmful interference to co-channel public safety users. the FCC needs to enforce this. They would do it if it were ANY OTHER radio jamming public safety. How long do you think your local ham operator or taxi company radio system would go before the FCC came and issued C &D, assessed fines, and confiscated equipment? A New York minute. Yet Nextel day after day, city after city, cause interference by operating an SMR network as a cellular/PCS network. iDEN isn't designed to operate in a picocell manner. That is the ROOT of the problem.

Want proof? Southern LINC operates an iDEN system, on the SAME interleaved channels, with the exact same base stations and subscriber units, yet they manage to stay out of our hair. Why? Because they operate a high site SMR, and they don't have pico cells. Oh and get this, under the concensus plan, other legitmate users of 800MHz like FedEX, Delta Airlines, etc would have to vacate their 800 channels, even though they cause no interference, and operate within their license. That is crap.

For the other side of the story, check this website. Not everyone in the industry is so gung-ho about project concensus:

http://www.ita-relay.com/nextel_proposal.htm

Taxpayers won't be the only one out on this one, lots of private businesses will get snowed too, all because the FCC doesn't want to do it's job and enforce existing laws. It makes me sick.
And because big business (Nextel) is the main offender, no one wants to do the right thing and make them work it out. It is THEIR PROBLEM THEY CREATED, THEY SHOULD SOLVE IT ON THEIR OWN.

Oh, that will bankrupt them?

Too bad, should have thought about that before trying to make wine out of water with iDEN as a cellular system.

The bottom line is, it is bad, but it is time for the FCC, Nextel and congress to stop playing games with people's lives and fix the problem on their own, without making us move, or other non-offending SMR's leave 800, or taxpayers shelling out millions.

This is your bed Nextel...now you lay in it.

I hate to say it, but someone is going to die before the schleps in Washington get off their a$$ and do something.

Those are my thoughts.

[Delta]

I can't wait until DandyDon reads this...this should be a good one!! (I found it to be very interesting thus far!)

[bobolito]

And I agree....if Nextel was so nosy to try and be the police of wireless in the Cingular/Nextwave license trade, then maybe all other carriers should sue Nextel for causing interference in their own 800Mhz cellular networks too. It should work both ways. But then again, things working both ways only happens in a perfect world, not in this one.

[JJSeminole]

Originally posted by: bobolito And I agree....if Nextel was so nosy to try and be the police of wireless in the Cingular/Nextwave license trade, then maybe all other carriers should sue Nextel for causing interference in their own 800Mhz cellular networks too. It should work both ways. But then again, things working both ways only happens in a perfect world, not in this one.

That last statement you made bobo was great and I couldn't have thought of it any better than "It should work both ways. But then again, things working both ways only happens in a perfect world, not in this world."

That is a really good sum up of things it seems in life and as far as this whole consensus plan. I'm not sure what will happen.

[DandyDon]

Is Nextel to blame for the current interference issues? Why has no one pointed the finger at the FCC who assigned the spectrum to begin with? The FCC created this mess, not Nextel.

It is a serious problem, Nextel has come up with a COMPLETE solution that will cost the tax payer not a dime. Yet this isn't good enough because Nextel might benfit from it. So instead of having Nextel possible benefiting we rather drag our feet like we have been doing for over 2 years, and put first responders in possible danger. Go figure. It's important, but I guess not that important right?

Originally posted by: MrFlashport 1)- The concensus plan benefits Nextel by giving them contiguous spectrum. Worth billions more than their hodgepodge of licences spread out all over the 800 SMR band they have now.

How is this worth BILLIONS more? Where do you get that info, BILLIONS more valuable?

2)-It calls for public safety to re-arrange all 22,000 plus systems from where they are now to the bottom of the 800 band, from 851-863MHz. There will be a 1MHz "guard band" then you guessed it, Nextel gets 865-870, 5MHz of continous spectrum JUST FOR THEM. And, because they are being such "good guys" by donating up to 100 million to shuffle everyone around, they also want first dibs at some PCS 1.9 and the soon to be created 2.1GHz band, free.

Nextel is not donating $100 million.... multiply that number 8 and 1/2 times.

Not to mention the monumental cost to taxpayers.

Again; "The Consensus Plan offers the Federal Communications Commission a complete solution to commercial/public-safety interference at no cost to the taxpayers." Link

Quit spreading lies.

My solution? Nextel needs to go back to being an SMR, turn off sites that cause harmful interference to co-channel public safety users. the FCC needs to enforce this. http://www.ita-relay.com/nextel_proposal.htm Taxpayers won't be the only one out on this one, lots of private businesses will get snowed too, all because the FCC doesn't want to do it's job and enforce existing laws. It makes me sick.

Again, the FCC assigned, sold these liscenses to Nextel. Please inform us of the existing laws and how Nextel is breaking them.

And because big business (Nextel) is the main offender, no one wants to do the right thing and make them work it out. It is THEIR PROBLEM THEY CREATED, THEY SHOULD SOLVE IT ON THEIR OWN.

1)They didn't create the problem. 2) You and ANTI-Nextel people don't want to do the right thing. Nextel has offered a solution, and again at no cost to the tax payer. So they have a solution, but it's not good enough? 3) Nextel isn't the only offender.

The bottom line is, it is bad, but it is time for the FCC, Nextel and congress to stop playing games with people's lives and fix the problem on their own, without making us move, or other non-offending SMR's leave 800, or taxpayers shelling out millions. I hate to say it, but someone is going to die before the schleps in Washington get off their a$$ and do something. Those are my thoughts.

Agreed, something needs to be done. Nextel has provided a solution, at no cost taxpayers. The fight is a simple battle of Corporate $$$$ that has stalled it, for 2 years now, sad.

Check your facts on the Consensus Plan, please. Your arguments are flawed.

[MrFlashport]

Dandy Don,

What do you really know about Nextel CMRS interference? None. Do you deal with it every day? Nope. I do. Do you have a GROL with radar endorsement, do you understand intermodulation and front end overload products that result from incomaptible technologies (pico cell iDEN versus hig site SMR)? I do. Have you been dealing with this on a day to day basis? I have. And I would much rather be spending my time (and the taxpayers) on developing a new CAD system, adding AVL to our cars, putting more talkgroups on our trunking system, and hiring a few more calltakers and dispatchers to reduce our agencies dead ring time further. But instead, I deal with officers and firemen complaining that their portables don't work at X and X, their MDT's log them off when they drive down this steeet, filling out APCO inerference forms, attending conferences about project 39 (how many have YOU been to? well see me in orlando later this month). and answering to county commissioners who aren't RF people, don't really care why...but want to know why their 62 million dollar radio system is riddled with interference...from NEXTEL and ONLY NEXTEL.

That is what I do for a living. I don't sell cell phones, I dont care what cell phones you or anyone uses. I am a communications professional, and it is my job to ensure that our officers have reliable, dependable fail-safe communications so they can answer your calls for help. Right now, Nextel is a thorn in my side as is many 911 and radio system managers. It isn't Southern LINC, Verizon, Sprint, T-mobile, Cingular or Metro PCS...it is NEXTEL. Anyday you want to come to Georgia, take a ride with me, and my spectrum analyzer and XTS3000 (if you even have a clue what one is), I will show you first hand what Nextel and Nextel alone does to our system. I will let you talk to our officers who have been on dangerous traffic stops where a Nextel site desnesed their 5,000 dollar portables so much, it couldn't even affiliate and displayed out of range. A fault of the radio? Nope. The system? Nope. Nextel: YES.

Ever been in a shootout? Are you in law enforcement? Do you know how important your portable is? as much as your Glock, O/C, Peerless hinged and your mag, your portable is a link to your life. Nothing, I repeat, Nothing, not Nextel or it's greed, the FCC and it's absurd failure to act and enforce the law against anyone who interferes with radio, nothing is more important as officer safety. Period. These are people's lives your precious company is playing with. Does someone have to die before the FCC shuts down these noismakers, and holds those responsible. It is nothing more than a threat to homeland security in our eyes, this is public safety infrastructure that Nextel is toying with. Bottom line...it needs to stop. YESTERDAY. Other emergency comm people have identified Nextel as the sole offender.

Check out APCO international's website for further evidence. Project 39 is what got it all started, and only until it reached the FCC did Nextel start to respond to our concerns.

http://www.apcointl.org/frequency/pr...9/combined.txt

And I challenge you to despute the facts that Nextel IS the MAJORITY SOURCE of interference to 800MHz public safety users. Hands down, undisputed. Even officers know this, our guys even have maps in their cars where Nextel sites are, so they can use their PERSONAL CELLPHONES to keep in touch with radio because they know their radios won't work. This is crap and you know it. Simple question: if Nextel is the root cause of the problem on 800MHz why should anyone else have to move? This is akin to a new neighboor moving into your subdivision playing his loud music late into the night. You call the polce (if they get the call because Nextel is probabbly making their radio deaf as a doornail) and they say they can't do anything but instead tell you and the other homeowners that you must go out and install soundproofing insulation or move. This is what Nextel is basically saying. It is assinine and you know it. It isn't going to cost taxpayers anything?

How much do you really know about simulcast trunking systems, programming radios such as MTS2000's, XTS3000's, Astro Spectras....yeah, that's what I thought. Another Nextel salesman. I wonder what tune you will be singing when an officer dies because Nextel's system is jamming up the airwaves with their IMD and crud. What Nextel is offering to "pay" for this "realignment" isn't a ripple in the toilet bowl for what it is really going to cost. And we all know who is gonna end up paying the bill. Reprogramming subscriber units alone is a daunting task. Take a look at the latest release of CPS for the XTS series, read the 100 plus page manual, then come talk to me. You are not the one who actually has to do the work, so you would not know. Most people think it is some kind of magic. It isn't. Public safety radios today aren't the old VHF Motracs shown in "1 Adam 12", the are as sophisticated a system as any cellular or PCS system is. But they are designed on tight budgets yet are supposed to be reliable. They were until Nextel decided to impersonate a cellular company with an SMR system and add 20 to 40 dB of noise to the band, which it was already overcroweded to begin with.

We agree on one thing: The FCC allowed it to happen by taking payoffs (any wonder why Reed Hundt, former FCC Chairman, now sits on Nextel's board?), but it is a higher travesty of justice to not force Nextel to cease and desist, fine and forfieture when Nextel sites tear up our radios, let alone move Nextel and their noise off 800 altogether or require them to revert back to being a high site ESMR (after all, they are part 90 not cellular or PCS!). so they would lose customers? oh well...should have bid on those PCS instead of swallowing up every jow blow and jim bob SMR to get these interleaved channels Nextel. than you wouldn't have this problem...

And do I hate Nextel? No, I hate anyone who is a threat to men and women who give their lives to protect us, wether it be terrorists flying planes into skyscrapers, incompetent boob FCC commissioners who fail to protect us, or greedy companies with no morals or ethics (Nextel)...you all suck in my book and are equallly at the bottom of the barrel. You make my job hard, you put an air of uncertainty into the world's most dangerous profession. (now our officers have yet something else to worry about when doing their job...add Nextel interfering with their radio to getting shot/stabbed/killed/beaten up/sued for doing their job/getting divorced/threats against their families, etc)

Come on Don, give me a friggin break pal. Not all of us in the 911 biz are idiots. Some of us spent time on the street, and time in school. some of us know RF, some of us know politics. we dont like what is going on with Nextel or the FCC and it stinks to high heaven. Someone is gonna die if this doesn't get solved. And how good can it be for Nextel to have slain officer's blood on their hands? That is what will happen, and it sickens me deep down. But you would not understand, as would most, because you don't work with these fine men and women everyday. You don't see the sadness in their eyes after they come in from dealing with the nations' forgotten, the criminal garbage, the pain of watching children live in squalor, the frustration of a system that fails to protect the innocent and those who pay dealry to protect them (bad judges, FCC commissioners, and other political buttclowns)...and now we add even more uncertainty to their plate with this crap...this isn't right.

(I bet you would be singing a different tune if your fire department or police did not respond when your home or business was on fire, being burglarized, etc...only to find out later that a Nextel site made those officers' radios and MDT's useless. You would hate em too)

[DandyDon]

Mr Flashpoint,

I am sure you know all about it, glad to hear it. I an not an RF engineer, nor a know it all like yourself. However I have followed this for long before AMW show and am surprised at the people who are against it and their lame arguments against it.

I would think if you are this concerned about interfernce you would support the comprehensive concensus plan, you have not provided any logical reasons as to why you are against it. It is the only COMPLETE solution to the issue, yet so much effort for killing it. This makes no sense.

Unfornuatly your lies and exageration of the truth cause a loss of credibility and reflect an underlying motive against the plan.
You said "monumental cost to the taxpayers"', "Taxpayers won't be the only one out on this one", & "taxpayers shelling out millions." all in 1 post as arguments against it. You also said Nextel will get spectrum worth BILLIONS more than what they have now, I have yet to see any info that quantifies your comment.

The concensus plan offers a solution that is fully funded and that solves the problems today AND protects for the future. There is no other solution that can say that. So again, if this project is so important (and it is) why are people against it? Because

From the Q&A on project concensus:

Who supports the Consensus Plan? Our nation’s fire chiefs, police chiefs, sheriffs are leading proponents of the Consensus Plan. In addition, 90% of those licensees affected by 800 MHz interference support the Plan. Public safety organizations such as APCO, as well as a number of private wireless organizations such as Federal Express, Northwest Airlines, Intel, and municipal organization such as the U.S. Conference of Mayors, National League of Cities and the American Association of State Highway and Transportation Officials. Why isn’t the “Balanced Approach” the needed solution? The CTIA/UTC plan is inherently reactive as it relies on modifying existing best practices to remedy interference rather curing the underlying problem – an outdated band plan at 800 MHz. These best practices are merely a band-aid; the past two years of increasing interference demonstrates that best practices are inadequate to the task of predicting and preempting interference before it occurs. At a time of local and state budget shortfalls, public safety cannot afford the on-going expense and resources needed for case-by-case interference mitigation with no end in sight. In contrast, the Consensus Plan supports public safety by correcting the underlying causes of interference without public safety or state and local government having to find and allocate additional public funds. Why isn’t the “technical fix” the needed solution? The stopgap measures being proposed by opponents of the Consensus Plan react to interference only after-the-fact, an unacceptable approach for emergency communications. Any partial, piecemeal or reactive solution leaves first responders in constant jeopardy, since a single case of interference to a policeman or firefighter's radio can jeopardize the lives of these first responders and the citizens they serve.

[JJSeminole]

Wow did this thread get interesting. I must say I stand behind the consensus plan myself. Just seems to me that other carriers are a little upset that Nextel may get the spetrum. Not to start a flaming war but it seems what Nextel has proposed looks pretty good in my book. I'll have to read up more on this whole issue. There is a lot more to it than I originally thought. But also wouldn't Southern Linc interfere with public radio like Nextel cause they use IDEN as well. Although I'm not sure if they're running exactly like Nextel. I think Southern Linc runs a a higher mhz, but I'm not sure.

[bobolito]

Just seems to me that other carriers are a little upset that Nextel may get the spetrum.

I believe this is true. But then again, Nextel got very upset when Cingular bought the spectrum from Nextwave. So go figure.

[JJSeminole]

Very true ... kinda like a win lose situation it seems for Nextel. Either way it seems that you can't please everyone and that's just life.

[MrFlashport]

Dandy Don,

I am not a "know it all" by any means, but I have been dealing with this professionally since 1997 when Nextel decided to pico cell which is the underlying cause of the problem, not the bandplan, other carriers being on the same site, etc. Nextel and Nextel alone are the root cause of this problem, and I am sorry, I see no reason why they should be rewarded for fixing a major problem to cochannel users on 800MHz that they and they alone caused. It just doesn't make sense. Does the concensus plan have it's strong points? Yes, but sir, if you honeslty think that just because some strong worded document will ensure no-cost to taxpayers for such a massive undertaking, you really are naive and need to stick to selling cellphones and such. No offense, but as I stated before, this type of rebanding has never been done before, and there are NO guarantees. Why should those of us believe Nextel that all will be fine? At the beginning of this debacle, Nextel denied they were even remotely to blame. Then when APCO and the FCC presented the hard technical evidence of the situation, all of the sudden they want to be treated like the good guys. It stinks. And you know it.

We all know Nextel is in a bind, they want to move forward to a network better suited to what they are selling it as, such as GSM, CDMA, etc. iDEN was not designed to be a cellular system, I suggest reading up on Motorola's website what exactly iDEN is, why it was designed, and why it was implemented. It's sole purpose was to bring digital radio to the Specialized Mobile Radio business, and relieve overcrowding of business radio systems on 800MHz. The concensus plan gives Nextel an advantage on the competitive bid process, which, yet again, allows them to profit from a situation that they created. So they may be offering some money (and where I ask are they going to get it? and what about the bonds they sold in 97 to fund the pico cell buildout?) to move everyone around on 800MHz. There are no guarantees the interference will stop, and the only sure winner in the game is Nextel with their free ride on PCS 1.9 and 2.1. In the begiining (the first plan Nextel introduced, known as the Nextel White Paper) they also wanted spectrum at the new 700MHz band for free, and did not want to give up their 900MHz licenses for the displaced SMR's. So why should we bow down to them again?

This problem CAN be resolved without moving anyone. If you read through the interference logs to APCO, when Nextel RF spends the time to do a site by site analysis and adds filtering, change antenna angles, etc, many times they can stop the interference altogether. But you see, this is VERY costly to Nextel, because their iDEN system was not designed to be operated in a pico cell manner, this often upsets their contours on every site. It is costly because they expend many hours of labor performing these changes. And they don't benefit in any way. Does the interference stop? in most cases, it does.

The main force behind Nextel pushing the Concensus Plan is that they benefit. Ever notice nowhere on Concensusplan.org or in their documentation is it made clear who the primary writers of it are? Nextel. If it is approved, I hope to dear God that after I work for six months straight retuning duplexers, combiners, multicouplers, reprogramming 3000 plus radios...it works. But you know what....experience tells me it won't. Then what are we going to do? Oh, I know, what Mr. Donahue wants us all to do...become Nextel customers!

Thanks for supporting us Don. We will keep you in mind whenever our radios don't work. I hope chatting on your Nextel phone is more important than us getting to the rape of a child in progress, or the structure fire, or the multi-car accident. Can I borrow your cellphone so I can call my 911 center because I can't seem to get through on my portable?

And to JJSeminole, regarding Southern LINC. SL uses exactly the same hardware as Nextel, from base station to subscriber unit to backhaul and billing system. They are also on interleaved frequencies with us. The reason they don't cause interference is due to the topology of their network. Southern LINC base stations aren't on every street corner, they are an SMR and place their sites high atop mountains, tall buildings, and in somewhat more remote locations. Therefore, they are far enough away from most public safety subscriber radios that they don't cause any problems. Nextel used to have this "high site" topology, and when they were an SMR like Southern LINC, they did not interfere with us either. Only when they started placing pico cells (or "small" cells) like cellular and PCS carriers do did the interference begin. This is because the iDEN base stations are on the nearby channels, run high power, and their antennas are pointed low to the ground to saturate the pico cell area with signal.

What this does to our radios is esentially render them deaf. It is akin to trying to whisper at a concert. Most of the radios that we use are trunking radios and operate similarly to cellular phones in the sense that they are in communication with a base station central controller (we call this affiliation). When the radios can't hear their control channels, the radios think they are out of range and won't allow them to even transmit. This is what makes the situation so bad, because the subscriber unit is basically rendered useless in the area where the signal from Nextel is so strong it overpowers the radios' front end (the part of the reciever that pulls the desired signal out of the air).

[Delta]

MrFlashport should change his name to MrAcronym. You use quite a lot of them. Also, If I may say, as interesting as it is for me to watch DD debate, I must say this thread is a bit like homework. A lot to read, and hard to follow. I need Cliffs Notes here. I am glad I won't be quizzed.

I also don't think DandyDon thinks his 2-way is more important that a rape. C'mon now!

Sooo....if Nextel has a solution, why not take it? I guess this one is above me. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-confused.gif[/img]

[DandyDon]

Flashport I do agree with most everything you have stated and don't dispute it. Quite frankly I don't understand how a pico cells compared to a base station can change the amount of interference. Not qualified to speak on that, way above my head so I take your word for most of your technical expertice on the subject.

Bottom line, there is interference and it has been and will get worse. Nextel did build their entire network around the 2-way feature and bought the SMR licenses all across the country back when Nextel was named Fleetcall. iDEN was built around this Direct Connect feature.

However, the FCC assigned these frequencies too close. The FCC created this problem, not operators who use frequency close to the public safty. If SouthernLinc gets more and more subscribers they will cause interference too, just as anyone near the lower 800mhz frequencies can cause interference. The Consensus Plan shifts the frequencies away from the Public Saftey frequencies, that huge block would be for Public Safety only.

If Nextel is giving something up, that they paid big money for, they are entitled to get something back, period. The argument against the plan states Nextel should spend money to alter their transmissions in a fashion that doesn't cause this interference. This is not only costly to Nextel, doesn't quarantee fix the interference issue will be resolved, and other tansmissions licensed around that band can still cause problems. And it still wouldn't be fool proof, we are talking about wireless........many variables. The only way to fix the issue is for Public Safety to have their own block to themselves, with no one else around it. Hence the fully funded Consensus Plan. Public Safety is too important to have the possibility of interference from anyone, not just Nextel.

The FCC has a mess on their hands to clean up, spectrum has been assigned without a clear forsight. It is time to reband much of it, especially the 800 area, and do it properly looking forward.

Most first reponders agree, most police, fire, rescue agree with this plan. It is long over due. John Walsh agrees so much he decided to bring it to the public and make them aware of it as well. The only people who are against the plan do not want Nextel getting something out of it, even though Nextel is forking over huge $$$ to support the plan. Spectrum is like real estate, every acre is not valued the same. If you are giving something up, you should get something back. It's just that Nextel is giving up say Ocean Block, and the only thing to give back is Ocean Front. There isn't much spectrum to dish out.

[Delta]

I just noticed something...(sorry but I am in the "low-tech" end of this thread). Most first responders use Nextels. Kinda ironic, huh?

I'm tired.

[JJSeminole]

Originally posted by: Delta3144 MrFlashport should change his name to MrAcronym. You use quite a lot of them. Also, If I may say, as interesting as it is for me to watch DD debate, I must say this thread is a bit like homework. A lot to read, and hard to follow. I need Cliffs Notes here. I am glad I won't be quizzed. I also don't think DandyDon thinks his 2-way is more important that a rape. C'mon now! Sooo....if Nextel has a solution, why not take it? I guess this one is above me. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-confused.gif[/img]

I agree with Delta if a solution is there then why not take it. I just I dunno ... its gettin a little too technical for me

[MrFlashport]

Dandy Don,

The reason why pico cell iDEN causes this problem is simple: it places the iDEN base station too close to a subscriber unit on an adjacent channel, Motorola did not design iDEN to operate in it's fashion, it was documented in the 1993 SRN's for the MSF500 base station service manuals, that placing iDEN base station equipment in the proximity to other 800MHz gear on adjacent channels WILL cause undesirable operation. And the reverse is true too...though the iDEN subscriber units of late are better and front end overload and IMD than previous models. Start talking on your iDEN phone, and I go to keyup my 800 portable standing next to you: the 3 watts from my radio will overload your reciever, it will lose the channel, and go to NO SERVICE. (happens all the time when using my portable near my SL I-700).

Why does Southern LINC not have these issues? Their sites are high sites, located far enough away that their signals don't overload our radios. Their base stations aren't on every cell tower like Nextel. (thus they have slighltly weaker signals in most places), but, Southern LINC was designed to give coverage to mobile iDEN radios (they do exisit, and Nextel even has them, though most reps haven't a clue what an M370 is) with 3DB gain antennas. Southern LINC was implemented to replace Southern Company's analog SmartZone trunking system with a digital trunking system (iDEN). They already had exisiting 800MHz high site analog for years, they wanted to upgrade to have more users online. They resell time on their system to defray the cost of implementation. SL is an ESMR and always will be, their main focus is providing a radio system for their companies' own operations.

Nextel OTOH, decided in the mid 90's to expand and compete with then up and coming PCS and cellular operators. To do this, they had to make their network "act" like a cellular network as far as coverage and capacity. Pico cells are nothing new to the cellular and PCS industry, and because of their bandplans and network topology, it works well for them, and they generally stay out of other radio spectrum user's hair most of the time. But again, referring to Motorola's own documents on iDEN system design, it was known even back then that iDEN and other systems don't get along well, and should be kept physically seperate. Not to bash iDEN too much, but it is one of the "dirtiest" types of transmissions, QUAM creates sideband noise, combine that with high power, it is easy to see on a spectrum analyzer what it does to a radio on a nearby channel.
Nextel's problem came from this pico cell implementation, and will not go away unless they are far enough away from high site systems to not cause a problem, or, they can do it the right way which is to "clean" up site by site. That is my opinion, based over 20 years of working with radio for a living. Do we need a bandplan for 800? we already had one, only when Nextel came along and started making noise did it become a real issue...

As far as John Walsh backing the concensus plan, this is a pure political move on behalf of the IAPC. I am surprised though, to see the tactful manner at which the producers of the show clearly identified Nextel as the main source of this CMRS to public safety interference. Now that someone has taken them on first hand, it is time for the truth to come out, and the FCC needs to do it's job at handling this issue with respect to public safety which should always come before profits. I think most people would agree this should be the case.

And no, most first responders do not rely solely on any iDEN system, it is not designed for public safety communications. It does, however, supplement a municipal radio system by providing an alternative to buying expensive radios for everyone. We use Southern LINC because it is part of a state contract, and many state agencies throughout Georgia use it for administrative and investigative communications. But it is not a subsititute for your agencies' radios and should not be. Commercial systems are proven to fail during disasters, and network security is another issue altogether. We like to manage and control our own systems, and this is the most cost effective and reliable means of doing it.


Dandy Don all I want is a surefire way to end this problem, that doesn't create another huge one. I have nothing against Nextel as a company, we were a DialCall customer in 1988-1990 for our county's water system (back when it was Privacy Plus) and it served us well in those years. We did not go to the Nextel system because the county bought their own trunking system, and we all happily co-existed until the summer of 98 when Nextel decided to change the game. All we want (and I speak for all public service radio users) is reliable, interference free communications, so we may do our job protecting you, the public. We want the FCC to do their job and enforce existing regulations (communications act of 1934, USC) regarding interference to police/fire radio services. We want the political games to end and the problem solved before our brother and sister civil servants are mamed or killed by a failure to communicate. Is that asking too much?

[MOTOhooligan]

Deltas' right, this is like homework... interesting as it may be I don't understand squat. Can we get some footnotes, graphs and diagrams please gentlemen?

[Delta]

MrFlashport...Lemme get this straight...Now, You say:

Yes, Rich, that what I have been saying, as well as others in the 911 business. Nextel has been blasting us off the air with their noisemakers and the FCC doesn't care. There was great error and misinformation in the report (as usual, to be expected from mass media when reporting on stuff they know nothing about), so let's clarify:
1)- The concensus plan benefits Nextel by giving them contiguous spectrum. Worth billions more than their hodgepodge of licences spread out all over the 800 SMR band they have now.
2)-It calls for public safety to re-arrange all 22,000 plus systems from where they are now to the bottom of the 800 band, from 851-863MHz. There will be a 1MHz "guard band" then you guessed it, Nextel gets 865-870, 5MHz of continous spectrum JUST FOR THEM. And, because they are being such "good guys" by donating up to 100 million to shuffle everyone around, they also want first dibs at some PCS 1.9 and the soon to be created 2.1GHz band, free.
The theory is that by moving Nextel a few MHz one way or another on the 800 band will somehow magically make this harmful interference cease. This has not been proven, and it may not work well if at all. Not to mention the monumental cost to taxpayers. In our agency alone, we have 3 sites, with 21 repeaters on each, combiners, 48 remote recievers with multicouplers...oh and around 3200 radios that would have to be reprogrammed, tuned and aligned. We are talking THOUSANDS of manhours of labor, and keep in mind, there is the logistical problem of keeping the system online while doing it. You expect us to answer and respond to 911 calls 24/7/365 right? Well, we need tools that work those hours too. And our system is just one of 22,000 on 800MHz in the US. This is no easy task. It is costly, time consuming, will put officer safety at risk while it is being done, as it will further cripple the system they depend on.
And it MAY NOT WORK.
Bad deal if you ask me. My solution? Nextel needs to go back to being an SMR, turn off sites that cause harmful interference to co-channel public safety users. the FCC needs to enforce this. They would do it if it were ANY OTHER radio jamming public safety. How long do you think your local ham operator or taxi company radio system would go before the FCC came and issued C &D, assessed fines, and confiscated equipment? A New York minute. Yet Nextel day after day, city after city, cause interference by operating an SMR network as a cellular/PCS network. iDEN isn't designed to operate in a picocell manner. That is the ROOT of the problem.
Want proof? Southern LINC operates an iDEN system, on the SAME interleaved channels, with the exact same base stations and subscriber units, yet they manage to stay out of our hair. Why? Because they operate a high site SMR, and they don't have pico cells. Oh and get this, under the concensus plan, other legitmate users of 800MHz like FedEX, Delta Airlines, etc would have to vacate their 800 channels, even though they cause no interference, and operate within their license. That is crap.
For the other side of the story, check this website. Not everyone in the industry is so gung-ho about project concensus:
http://www.ita-relay.com/nextel_proposal.htm
Taxpayers won't be the only one out on this one, lots of private businesses will get snowed too, all because the FCC doesn't want to do it's job and enforce existing laws. It makes me sick.
And because big business (Nextel) is the main offender, no one wants to do the right thing and make them work it out. It is THEIR PROBLEM THEY CREATED, THEY SHOULD SOLVE IT ON THEIR OWN.
Oh, that will bankrupt them?Too bad, should have thought about that before trying to make wine out of water with iDEN as a cellular system.
The bottom line is, it is bad, but it is time for the FCC, Nextel and congress to stop playing games with people's lives and fix the problem on their own, without making us move, or other non-offending SMR's leave 800, or taxpayers shelling out millions.
This is your bed Nextel...now you lay in it.
I hate to say it, but someone is going to die before the schleps in Washington get off their a$$ and do something.
Those are my thoughts.
Dandy Don,What do you really know about Nextel CMRS interference? None. Do you deal with it every day? Nope. I do. Do you have a GROL with radar endorsement, do you understand intermodulation and front end overload products that result from incomaptible technologies (pico cell iDEN versus hig site SMR)? I do. Have you been dealing with this on a day to day basis? I have. And I would much rather be spending my time (and the taxpayers) on developing a new CAD system, adding AVL to our cars, putting more talkgroups on our trunking system, and hiring a few more calltakers and dispatchers to reduce our agencies dead ring time further. But instead, I deal with officers and firemen complaining that their portables don't work at X and X, their MDT's log them off when they drive down this steeet, filling out APCO inerference forms, attending conferences about project 39 (how many have YOU been to? well see me in orlando later this month). and answering to county commissioners who aren't RF people, don't really care why...but want to know why their 62 million dollar radio system is riddled with interference...from NEXTEL and ONLY NEXTEL.
That is what I do for a living. I don't sell cell phones, I dont care what cell phones you or anyone uses. I am a communications professional, and it is my job to ensure that our officers have reliable, dependable fail-safe communications so they can answer your calls for help. Right now, Nextel is a thorn in my side as is many 911 and radio system managers. It isn't Southern LINC, Verizon, Sprint, T-mobile, Cingular or Metro PCS...it is NEXTEL. Anyday you want to come to Georgia, take a ride with me, and my spectrum analyzer and XTS3000 (if you even have a clue what one is), I will show you first hand what Nextel and Nextel alone does to our system. I will let you talk to our officers who have been on dangerous traffic stops where a Nextel site desnesed their 5,000 dollar portables so much, it couldn't even affiliate and displayed out of range. A fault of the radio? Nope. The system? Nope. Nextel: YES.
Ever been in a shootout? Are you in law enforcement? Do you know how important your portable is? as much as your Glock, O/C, Peerless hinged and your mag, your portable is a link to your life. Nothing, I repeat, Nothing, not Nextel or it's greed, the FCC and it's absurd failure to act and enforce the law against anyone who interferes with radio, nothing is more important as officer safety. Period. These are people's lives your precious company is playing with. Does someone have to die before the FCC shuts down these noismakers, and holds those responsible. It is nothing more than a threat to homeland security in our eyes, this is public safety infrastructure that Nextel is toying with. Bottom line...it needs to stop. YESTERDAY. Other emergency comm people have identified Nextel as the sole offender.
Check out APCO international's website for further evidence. Project 39 is what got it all started, and only until it reached the FCC did Nextel start to respond to our concerns.
http://www.apcointl.org/frequency/pr...9/combined.txt
And I challenge you to despute the facts that Nextel IS the MAJORITY SOURCE of interference to 800MHz public safety users. Hands down, undisputed. Even officers know this, our guys even have maps in their cars where Nextel sites are, so they can use their PERSONAL CELLPHONES to keep in touch with radio because they know their radios won't work. This is crap and you know it. Simple question: if Nextel is the root cause of the problem on 800MHz why should anyone else have to move? This is akin to a new neighboor moving into your subdivision playing his loud music late into the night. You call the polce (if they get the call because Nextel is probabbly making their radio deaf as a doornail) and they say they can't do anything but instead tell you and the other homeowners that you must go out and install soundproofing insulation or move. This is what Nextel is basically saying. It is assinine and you know it. It isn't going to cost taxpayers anything?
How much do you really know about simulcast trunking systems, programming radios such as MTS2000's, XTS3000's, Astro Spectras....yeah, that's what I thought. Another Nextel salesman. I wonder what tune you will be singing when an officer dies because Nextel's system is jamming up the airwaves with their IMD and crud. What Nextel is offering to "pay" for this "realignment" isn't a ripple in the toilet bowl for what it is really going to cost. And we all know who is gonna end up paying the bill. Reprogramming subscriber units alone is a daunting task. Take a look at the latest release of CPS for the XTS series, read the 100 plus page manual, then come talk to me. You are not the one who actually has to do the work, so you would not know. Most people think it is some kind of magic. It isn't. Public safety radios today aren't the old VHF Motracs shown in "1 Adam 12", the are as sophisticated a system as any cellular or PCS system is. But they are designed on tight budgets yet are supposed to be reliable. They were until Nextel decided to impersonate a cellular company with an SMR system and add 20 to 40 dB of noise to the band, which it was already overcroweded to begin with.
We agree on one thing: The FCC allowed it to happen by taking payoffs (any wonder why Reed Hundt, former FCC Chairman, now sits on Nextel's board?), but it is a higher travesty of justice to not force Nextel to cease and desist, fine and forfieture when Nextel sites tear up our radios, let alone move Nextel and their noise off 800 altogether or require them to revert back to being a high site ESMR (after all, they are part 90 not cellular or PCS!). so they would lose customers? oh well...should have bid on those PCS instead of swallowing up every jow blow and jim bob SMR to get these interleaved channels Nextel. than you wouldn't have this problem...
And do I hate Nextel? No, I hate anyone who is a threat to men and women who give their lives to protect us, wether it be terrorists flying planes into skyscrapers, incompetent boob FCC commissioners who fail to protect us, or greedy companies with no morals or ethics (Nextel)...you all suck in my book and are equallly at the bottom of the barrel. You make my job hard, you put an air of uncertainty into the world's most dangerous profession. (now our officers have yet something else to worry about when doing their job...add Nextel interfering with their radio to getting shot/stabbed/killed/beaten up/sued for doing their job/getting divorced/threats against their families, etc)
Come on Don, give me a friggin break pal. Not all of us in the 911 biz are idiots. Some of us spent time on the street, and time in school. some of us know RF, some of us know politics. we dont like what is going on with Nextel or the FCC and it stinks to high heaven. Someone is gonna die if this doesn't get solved. And how good can it be for Nextel to have slain officer's blood on their hands? That is what will happen, and it sickens me deep down. But you would not understand, as would most, because you don't work with these fine men and women everyday. You don't see the sadness in their eyes after they come in from dealing with the nations' forgotten, the criminal garbage, the pain of watching children live in squalor, the frustration of a system that fails to protect the innocent and those who pay dealry to protect them (bad judges, FCC commissioners, and other political buttclowns)...and now we add even more uncertainty to their plate with this crap...this isn't right.
(I bet you would be singing a different tune if your fire department or police did not respond when your home or business was on fire, being burglarized, etc...only to find out later that a Nextel site made those officers' radios and MDT's useless. You would hate em too)
Dandy Don,
I am not a "know it all" by any means, but I have been dealing with this professionally since 1997 when Nextel decided to pico cell which is the underlying cause of the problem, not the bandplan, other carriers being on the same site, etc. Nextel and Nextel alone are the root cause of this problem, and I am sorry, I see no reason why they should be rewarded for fixing a major problem to cochannel users on 800MHz that they and they alone caused. It just doesn't make sense. Does the concensus plan have it's strong points? Yes, but sir, if you honeslty think that just because some strong worded document will ensure no-cost to taxpayers for such a massive undertaking, you really are naive and need to stick to selling cellphones and such. No offense, but as I stated before, this type of rebanding has never been done before, and there are NO guarantees. Why should those of us believe Nextel that all will be fine? At the beginning of this debacle, Nextel denied they were even remotely to blame. Then when APCO and the FCC presented the hard technical evidence of the situation, all of the sudden they want to be treated like the good guys. It stinks. And you know it.
We all know Nextel is in a bind, they want to move forward to a network better suited to what they are selling it as, such as GSM, CDMA, etc. iDEN was not designed to be a cellular system, I suggest reading up on Motorola's website what exactly iDEN is, why it was designed, and why it was implemented. It's sole purpose was to bring digital radio to the Specialized Mobile Radio business, and relieve overcrowding of business radio systems on 800MHz. The concensus plan gives Nextel an advantage on the competitive bid process, which, yet again, allows them to profit from a situation that they created. So they may be offering some money (and where I ask are they going to get it? and what about the bonds they sold in 97 to fund the pico cell buildout?) to move everyone around on 800MHz. There are no guarantees the interference will stop, and the only sure winner in the game is Nextel with their free ride on PCS 1.9 and 2.1. In the begiining (the first plan Nextel introduced, known as the Nextel White Paper) they also wanted spectrum at the new 700MHz band for free, and did not want to give up their 900MHz licenses for the displaced SMR's. So why should we bow down to them again?
This problem CAN be resolved without moving anyone. If you read through the interference logs to APCO, when Nextel RF spends the time to do a site by site analysis and adds filtering, change antenna angles, etc, many times they can stop the interference altogether. But you see, this is VERY costly to Nextel, because their iDEN system was not designed to be operated in a pico cell manner, this often upsets their contours on every site. It is costly because they expend many hours of labor performing these changes. And they don't benefit in any way. Does the interference stop? in most cases, it does.
The main force behind Nextel pushing the Concensus Plan is that they benefit. Ever notice nowhere on Concensusplan.org or in their documentation is it made clear who the primary writers of it are? Nextel. If it is approved, I hope to dear God that after I work for six months straight retuning duplexers, combiners, multicouplers, reprogramming 3000 plus radios...it works. But you know what....experience tells me it won't. Then what are we going to do? Oh, I know, what Mr. Donahue wants us all to do...become Nextel customers!
Thanks for supporting us Don. We will keep you in mind whenever our radios don't work. I hope chatting on your Nextel phone is more important than us getting to the rape of a child in progress, or the structure fire, or the multi-car accident. Can I borrow your cellphone so I can call my 911 center because I can't seem to get through on my portable?
And to JJSeminole, regarding Southern LINC. SL uses exactly the same hardware as Nextel, from base station to subscriber unit to backhaul and billing system. They are also on interleaved frequencies with us. The reason they don't cause interference is due to the topology of their network. Southern LINC base stations aren't on every street corner, they are an SMR and place their sites high atop mountains, tall buildings, and in somewhat more remote locations. Therefore, they are far enough away from most public safety subscriber radios that they don't cause any problems. Nextel used to have this "high site" topology, and when they were an SMR like Southern LINC, they did not interfere with us either. Only when they started placing pico cells (or "small" cells) like cellular and PCS carriers do did the interference begin. This is because the iDEN base stations are on the nearby channels, run high power, and their antennas are pointed low to the ground to saturate the pico cell area with signal.
What this does to our radios is esentially render them deaf. It is akin to trying to whisper at a concert. Most of the radios that we use are trunking radios and operate similarly to cellular phones in the sense that they are in communication with a base station central controller (we call this affiliation). When the radios can't hear their control channels, the radios think they are out of range and won't allow them to even transmit. This is what makes the situation so bad, because the subscriber unit is basically rendered useless in the area where the signal from Nextel is so strong it overpowers the radios' front end (the part of the reciever that pulls the desired signal out of the air). Dandy Don,
The reason why pico cell iDEN causes this problem is simple: it places the iDEN base station too close to a subscriber unit on an adjacent channel, Motorola did not design iDEN to operate in it's fashion, it was documented in the 1993 SRN's for the MSF500 base station service manuals, that placing iDEN base station equipment in the proximity to other 800MHz gear on adjacent channels WILL cause undesirable operation. And the reverse is true too...though the iDEN subscriber units of late are better and front end overload and IMD than previous models. Start talking on your iDEN phone, and I go to keyup my 800 portable standing next to you: the 3 watts from my radio will overload your reciever, it will lose the channel, and go to NO SERVICE. (happens all the time when using my portable near my SL I-700).
Why does Southern LINC not have these issues? Their sites are high sites, located far enough away that their signals don't overload our radios. Their base stations aren't on every cell tower like Nextel. (thus they have slighltly weaker signals in most places), but, Southern LINC was designed to give coverage to mobile iDEN radios (they do exisit, and Nextel even has them, though most reps haven't a clue what an M370 is) with 3DB gain antennas. Southern LINC was implemented to replace Southern Company's analog SmartZone trunking system with a digital trunking system (iDEN). They already had exisiting 800MHz high site analog for years, they wanted to upgrade to have more users online. They resell time on their system to defray the cost of implementation. SL is an ESMR and always will be, their main focus is providing a radio system for their companies' own operations.
Nextel OTOH, decided in the mid 90's to expand and compete with then up and coming PCS and cellular operators. To do this, they had to make their network "act" like a cellular network as far as coverage and capacity. Pico cells are nothing new to the cellular and PCS industry, and because of their bandplans and network topology, it works well for them, and they generally stay out of other radio spectrum user's hair most of the time. But again, referring to Motorola's own documents on iDEN system design, it was known even back then that iDEN and other systems don't get along well, and should be kept physically seperate. Not to bash iDEN too much, but it is one of the "dirtiest" types of transmissions, QUAM creates sideband noise, combine that with high power, it is easy to see on a spectrum analyzer what it does to a radio on a nearby channel.
Nextel's problem came from this pico cell implementation, and will not go away unless they are far enough away from high site systems to not cause a problem, or, they can do it the right way which is to "clean" up site by site. That is my opinion, based over 20 years of working with radio for a living. Do we need a bandplan for 800? we already had one, only when Nextel came along and started making noise did it become a real issue...
As far as John Walsh backing the concensus plan, this is a pure political move on behalf of the IAPC. I am surprised though, to see the tactful manner at which the producers of the show clearly identified Nextel as the main source of this CMRS to public safety interference. Now that someone has taken them on first hand, it is time for the truth to come out, and the FCC needs to do it's job at handling this issue with respect to public safety which should always come before profits. I think most people would agree this should be the case.
And no, most first responders do not rely solely on any iDEN system, it is not designed for public safety communications. It does, however, supplement a municipal radio system by providing an alternative to buying expensive radios for everyone. We use Southern LINC because it is part of a state contract, and many state agencies throughout Georgia use it for administrative and investigative communications. But it is not a subsititute for your agencies' radios and should not be. Commercial systems are proven to fail during disasters, and network security is another issue altogether. We like to manage and control our own systems, and this is the most cost effective and reliable means of doing it.
Dandy Don all I want is a surefire way to end this problem, that doesn't create another huge one. I have nothing against Nextel as a company, we were a DialCall customer in 1988-1990 for our county's water system (back when it was Privacy Plus) and it served us well in those years. We did not go to the Nextel system because the county bought their own trunking system, and we all happily co-existed until the summer of 98 when Nextel decided to change the game. All we want (and I speak for all public service radio users) is reliable, interference free communications, so we may do our job protecting you, the public. We want the FCC to do their job and enforce existing regulations (communications act of 1934, USC) regarding interference to police/fire radio services. We want the political games to end and the problem solved before our brother and sister civil servants are mamed or killed by a failure to communicate. Is that asking too much?



I almost had to call 911...I about had an anyurism reading that!!

[JJSeminole]

When is a ruling of some sort or whatever supposed to happen for this consensus plan. Is anything as far as a solution other than Nextel close to complete? I am just wondering if things are getting bad when will the FCC intervene?

[DandyDon]

The FCC said they were going to rule either last quarter or this quarter........... it just recently got pushed back to this quarter or next quarter. (can't remember which) In March 2002, the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) promised to resolve this issue as effectively and expediently as possible. That was 2 years ago.

Nobody expects Nextel to succeed, and 10 years ago when Nextel launched a PTT button critics claimed it would never take off. Today it's the opposite as everyone wants to have a PTT, or a "new and improved" PTT reguardless how well it works.

Read the concensus on this forum, or any of Boblito's comments. You hear how Nextel is horrible, how crappy the service is, how Nextel will fall, or go bankrupt, never ending doom and gloom for Nextel. It's small minded unsubstantiated diareaha of the mouth. Look at the finacial statements, stock price, time it took to be cash flow positive, to earn a profit, look how quickly they paid their debt, look at their churn, look at their ARPU, look at any metric you want. You will find Nextel at the top of these catagories. Nextel has a strong business model and always will.

Everyone is missing the big picture. It's right here: Nextel Broadband

The big picture and how this Concensus Plan plays into the business plan. Personnally I think Nextel is betting on this plan to happen, they need/will abandon iDEN at some point. It's no secret. The future is all about broadband wireless though. Keep in mind Nextel owns their own network, it's all digital, there are no "subsidiaries" to fill network gaps or regions of the country, no hic-cups or reliying on other companies. Nextel isn't a branch, spin off, or under the umbrella of other decision makers. This works to their advantage.

Nextel has won wireless licenses, spectrum, tower leases and other related assets from bankrupt Nucentrix Broadband Networks for $51 million in an auction. Nextel also bought Worldcom's MMDS licenses for $140 million. That portfolio gives Nextel about 1/3rd of the 2.5 - 2.6 GHz MMDS licenses in the United States - as big as Sprint's MMDS portfolio. Nextel offered to give up 10.5 MHz of spectrum on the 800 MHz band for 10 MHz on the 1.9 GHz band, in the Consensus Plan. That plan would redesignate 1910-1915/1990-1995 MHz to Nextel in exchange for pieces of the 700, 800 and 900 MHz spectrum that were awarded to Nextel by the FCC but have caused interference problems with public safety users. Nextel would return those frequencies to the FCC for reassignment to public safety and private wireless operators in exchange for a block of new frequencies. Nextel has offered to pay $850 million to help facilitate this rebanding.

From this week's Wireless Week:

Nextel Communications Inc., which last year purchased the wireless broadband MMDS spectrum assets from WorldCom for $144 million (a deal that is set to close in the second quarter) and from Nucentrix Broadband Networks Inc. for $51 million, is testing a variety of technologies in hopes of finding one that fits its stiff requirements. And what exactly are those requirements? According to Barry West, Nextel chief technology officer and executive vice president, the successful vendor must be able to support a business case that calls for generating 1 Gb of data per user per month for $20 per month or less. "The day wireless mobility moves into this space is when the prices drop," West says. "The cable operators don't want to go below $50 per month. If I can do it for $20 per month, we have a success."

This is where it's going, broadband wireless.

Sure others will eventually have a competeing PTT on day, let those carriers do the R&D to see what works. By that time Nextel will be focused on broadband wireless data, and can have PTT from a Kodiak vendor or whomever else......without iDEN. Look at the Flarion trials going on today, you can trial/test this yourself (if you live in N.C.)

CDMA perhaps, GSM doubtful, a combination of iDEN and CDMA or GSM? Whatever it will be the concensus plan is important. Spectrum is important.

It's the big picture, and hence the reasons other competitors are against the consensus plan. Public safety isn't important, the threat Nextel has as a dominating powerhouse. So nay on the plan, shameful if you ask me.

[Delta]

Well Said...Now prepare for the next chapter of "War and Peace"

[AnthroMatt]

Originally posted by: Delta3144 Well Said...Now prepare for the next chapter of "War and Peace"

Watch it or I might ban you. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img] That book you wrote was more of a strain on my eyes than your epilepsy link. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

[JJSeminole]

lol true Matt ... my eyes still hurt from that book Delta posted

[MrFlashport]

Don,

No one is disputing Nextel's success as an ESMR, they have done very well and changed the two-way radio business forever from the old analog Fleetcall/DialCall days.

The issue at hand is their IMO phony concern and fake "goodbuddy" image they portray in light of their dangerous interference with public safety radio systems. And yes, you made it clear in your most recent post: their number one concern is profits. Understood, they are a business and profit is what it is all about, but profit should NEVER come before safety. This is a lesson we have not learned yet in this country, and always end up doing so by paying a far greater cost than stock points, profits, etc. I don't want Nextel (or any wireless company) to go out of business...I want them off 800MHz and out of my hair if they can't run their system and not intrude on us, we have enough to deal with since 9/11 and no matter how many iDEN radios they handed out in NYC on 9/11, it still doesn't their counter their daily borrage of noise they add to our radios, and disrupt mission critical life safety communications.

And I think any plan should be contrived by an outside source, not Nextel, but independent entity. This is where the FCC SHOULD have stepped in a long time ago, but it is clear their policy and legislation is for sale to the highest bidder. Maybe they should open up an Ebay store! RF spectrum for sale, and of course, add the moniker "AS IS...NO WARRANTY EXPRESS OR IMPLIED" that way when debacles like this begin, they always have an out.

To clarify a few things:

1)- Not all public safety radio networks are on 800MHz. In many areas, they still use VHF and UHF radios, even some major cities (such as Los Angeles and New York City). Many of those towns (such as LA) have avoided going to 800, especially in light of Nextel's jamming. If your town or city uses VHF or UHF and they are getting interference on their radios, it most likely isn't from Nextel (or any other wireless phone company).

2)-The majority of public safety radio networks on 800MHz are trunked systems. What is a trunked system you ask (JJSeminole), well here you go. Trunking radio systems let many users share just a few actual radio channels. Through the use of computer controlled switching (much as your landline phone system operates), there can be multiple talkgroups, or virtual channels, because just like your wireline phone, the theory is, not everyone will be talking at the same time. Trunking systems allow us to see who transmits or even turns their radio on, and what talkgroup they are listening for calls on. During disasters, talkgroups can be patched together.

For example, a mass evacuation is needed. Police commanders can then talk directly to say, school security personnel, who are on the system but usually on different talkgroups for day-to-day operations. During this situation, these groups are patched together remotely from a dispatch console, requiring no user intervention. Other features like emergency call allow officers in trouble to hit a single button on their portable. Several things happen, a dispatcher is notified of who it is, the emergency signal, and their CAD (computer aided dispatch) has their last location they were shown to be. Other units can be sent immediately. Even if all channels in the trunk system are in use, through "ruthless preemption", the user of the lowest priority level (like a sanitation worker) will be bumped off to allow the emergency call. If the officer doesn't respond, the dispatcher can send a command to the radio to transmit audio of what is going on near the radio (a fight, screams, whatever). We can also disable lost or stolen radios from accessing the system. Trunking systems are a huge benefit for us and your local government, they also have features like private call (similar to Nextel's Direct Connect) to allow one-to-one conversations between users. They also allow for telephone calls to be made. On advanced digital trunking radio systems, services such as secure data portals for connection to criminal databases, records, etc can be used with connection to a laptop or MDT (mobile data terminals). As you can see, the police radio is not just "car 54 where are you" anymore, it one of the most important pieces of equipment used 24/7/365 by your local government to provide you with services most take for granted.

3)-Public safety radio systems operate on what we call a "noise limited" basis. that means this:
the radios and base stations are designed to operate with as few base stations as practically possible. Why is this done? Money. Governments have a finite budget for these systems, and thus, must get the best bang for the buck. Also, less infrastructure means a lower operating cost, less towers and backhaul to fix, etc. The only drawback is the cost of the subscriber radios which can be into the thousands per portable and mobile radio. (and you thought that latest cellphone was expensive!) Noise limited systems means the subscriber radios work with weak signals, and perform well. It also makes them prone to sources of interference from adjacent and on-frequency signals.

4)-Nextel is now what is known as an "interference limited" system. Interference limited means this in laymans terms: subscriber radios are less sensitive to signals, and thus require more signal to be provided by the network base station. This means a lower cost, lighter and cheaper handset. But it means a more robust, built out network with relatively high powered base station, high gain antennas, and closer spacing between sites. Nextel spent billions on converting it's 1st generation network from being noise limited to being interference limited, thus this is where the interference began. Remember the first Nextel handsets? The L3000 'brick"? It was a 1 watt portable built much like the typical two-way radio...and had a cost of over a grand. Well, when Nextel wanted to be play celphone company, they wanted to use more "celphone" like radios....
and they needed a network that acted like a celphone in terms of RF. Cellular and PCS systems are interference limited, but they operate at different frequencies, and don't cause such havoc to our radios.

One problem, they failed to take into account the thousands of life safety radio systems nearby.
Bottom line is they didn't care. They knew about it, it was well documented in Motorola's technical documents. The FCC did not care, Reed Hundt and his cronies liked very much the millions they made in spectrum auctions. They also knew about the potential for this interference and looked away.

So there's the story, I hope I answered questions and explained everything in layman's terms. I am a radio guy, and sometimes I forget not everyone else's in the world is.

Like I said, I have no carrier loyalty or disloyalty. I just hope that this comes to an end before someone gets killed. Now that it is out in the open, it is interesting to see Nextel squirming and shuffling to shut people like me up. But you know what, I am not going to. As long as there are police, fire and other public safety officer's lives being compromised by their insane interference, I will continue to make alot more noise than their cruddy iDEN overpowered base stations do to our trunking system. I just want it to stop. point blank. it has gone on long enough. end of story.

[Delta]

Originally posted by: AnthroMatt Originally posted by: Delta3144 Well Said...Now prepare for the next chapter of "War and Peace" Watch it or I might ban you. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img] That book you wrote was more of a strain on my eyes than your epilepsy link. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

You didn't ACTUALLY try to read that did you?? LOL...Notice the next 4 chapters are in. I think this has been over analyzed just a tad....

[JJSeminole]

Ok I am starting to get somewhat of a grip on what's going on all in this thread. Thanks for tryin to explain things in a better term MrFlashPort. I think I am finally catching on. I just would like to see some resolution to this whole issue. Because the way I read this stuff then then FCC should already have intervened. I just wouldn't really care to turn on the news and read about more killing due to some interference that the FCC could've stopped in the first place. Just my .02

[CoreyTheGent]

LMAO. "War and Peace." Man, Delta read my mind as if my skull were made of glass.

[DandyDon]

And everyone says Nextel is a crybaby, looks like Verizon isn't concerned about Public Safety [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img]

Verizon Wireless Adamant On Nextel Windfall By Mark Rockwell February 12, 2004 news@2 direct WASHINGTON -- Verizon Wireless, waving a new study it commissioned from Kane Reece Associates Inc., reiterated its arguments to the FCC that Nextel would get a $7.2 billion windfall if the Nextel-proposed 800 MHz spectrum swap is adopted by the agency. The study is the second done by Kane Reece for Verizon Wireless alleging Nextel will get a substantial windfall under the plan. Last fall, Nextel challenged the first Kane Reece study as inaccurate. Kane Reece's new study backs those initial claims. Verizon Wireless sponsors a rival 800 MHz plan under consideration at the commission. "A portion of the windfall that Nextel would enjoy under the Consensus Plan can be attributed to the 'new' spectrum that Nextel would receive at 1.9 GHz, and a portion can be attributed to the improved (e.g. contiguous) spectrum in the 800 band." Kane Reece concludes that the improved spectrum that Nextel would receive at 800 MHz would be worth an additional $2.3 billion to Nextel on top of what the company's old spectrum would bring, says the current study. Nextel's research done by Sun Fire Group last year, says Kane Reece, estimated the "consensus plan" would leave Nextel with spectrum assets worth almost $1 billion less than the spectrum it now holds. Kane Reece called that estimate "simply not credible." "Sun Fire wrongly equates the value of the non-contiguous, encumbered spectrum Nextel proposes to return with the contiguous, clear spectrum that it would receive" in Nextel's proposal to swap spectrum with emergency service providers, says Kane Reece. The FCC is in the final stages of considering how it will handle the re-assignment of 800 MHz spectrum between wireless providers and emergency responders. An FCC commissioner Kathleen Abernathy said this week a decision could come from the agency by the end of this quarter, after two years of consideration.