Ec/IO -22.5 on Verizon In Las Vegas. Bad?

[YneBrat]

I’m a nu-b on these boards though I have spent considerable time the past few weeks lurking/seeking guidance on choosing a replacement for my digital/analog Moto V60i. This weekend, with great trepidation, I decided to gamble on an all-digital phone and got a new LG VX7000. The phone is really nice, but being an obsessive second-guesser, I have been doing everything I can to assure myself I made a wise choice while I’m still in the 15-day “Worry Free Guarantee” period. Alas, I still need help.

After getting home with the phone and exploring its menus, I found that it offers an alert that will sound whenever a change of service occurs. I thought it would be interesting to turn on the alert so that I could see when I’m entering and leaving the digital service area. Rather than finding this out only when I lose calls, this would give me a way to find out if there are any service gaps in the various areas of town that I frequent. Once I set the alert, however, I became alarmed! As the phone sat on my desk at home, the alert started going on an off on an almost minute-by-minute basis. The alert was indicating that the phone was “leaving the service area” and “entering the service area,” even as the phone sat in one place. How could this be?

I came back to these boards and read some more. I learned about the “secret” service menu and the phone field tests. I learned that an Rx power reading of -8.5 to -9.0 is not great but not bad, and that an Ec/IO reading of -5 is good and -12 is not so good; Ec/IO readings of -10 to -14 mean the network is getting busy. [I apologize to the person(s) who posted this information. I would like to give you credit for your work but I have been having trouble finding the posts again. Please feel free to jump in and take credit and please correct me if I read anything wrong.]

Now I have questions:

Would I be correct in assuming that the Rx power is more a reflection of the phone’s performance and that the Ec/IO reading reflects the network’s performance?

I have been watching my phone’s readings for a few days and saw my Rx power readings ranging from -85 to -74, with excursions sometimes as low as -90 and occasionally as high as -39. These numbers seem to compare well to those that I have seen discussed on these boards. So if my assumptions are correct, is it fair to conclude that my phone is performing well in terms of its ability to “pull in a signal?”

In contrast, the Ec/IO numbers I have seen seem to be far out of line from others that I have seen discussed here. For example, as I was driving home last night, I watched the Ec/IO hover around -8.5 to -11.5, but it frequently dipped as low as -22.5. I observed the similar readings again this morning as I was driving back in to work. Again, if my assumptions are correct, would it be fair to conclude that the VX7000 is good a pulling in a signal, but the Verizon network in Las Vegas is too busy to accommodate any more digital users?

My old analog/digital Moto V60i almost never dropped a call. This new, all-digital LG VX7000 cannot even stay on the network. Is it the phone’s fault or is Verizon failing to meet digital capacity?

If you made it this far, thanks for taking the time to read my post and I would appreciate any and all input.

[Airb330]

That is how Verizon is in Delaware. You have your information correct. Getting readings of -30's (on top of the tower lol) to the low -80s is very good. Getting into the 90's and 100's can mean dropped calls. This usually isn't the problem with Verizon, it's capacity. Everywhere I went with Verizon (on the 8900) I would have EC/IO readings of well over -15. That's pretty bad. I missed calls, and calls would break up and drop even with good rx readings. I am not impressed with the 7k to be hoenst. My friend has one, and it usually displays one bar, and that's in a good coverage area. In Vegas, I think Sprint is #1. They have awesome coverage (and a lot of capacity), and with the 5$ roaming option, one can go well out into the desert and can roam. Verizon is overrated, but in some areas it is the best service. In most major cities, other carriers work just as well or better. Good luck, hope I helped some.

[chefofthefuture]

The vx6000 I had sometimes showed bogus readings (-31.5) just for a minute. I think to really judge Ec/Io, you have to kind of take an average over a minute or two. It's always going to jump around a little... extreme jumps seem like bogus readings.

[Andy]

Originally Posted by chefofthefuture

The vx6000 I had sometimes showed bogus readings (-31.5) just for a minute. I think to really judge Ec/Io, you have to kind of take an average over a minute or two. It's always going to jump around a little... extreme jumps seem like bogus readings.

I agree with chefofthefuture!
The original poster, if I'm not mistakes, said his v60i barely dropped calls where his vx 7000 has problems even keeping a signal...my guess would be that the phone has some kind of a problem since it looses the signal in areas where he did not have any problems with his v60i.
I visit Las Vegas frequently, since I have extended family there and never really have any problems.

[jgar2005]

Wirelessly posted (MOT-V300/0B.09.1FR MIB/2.2 Profile/MIDP-2.0 Configuration/CLDC-1.0)

T-Mobile is much better than verizon in vegas. the only time T-Mobile is not good is in the rural areas. thats the only reason why people like verizon. The call quality is much better with T-Mobile then verizon also.

[chefofthefuture]

Hey -- this is a bit of an offshoot, but how is AT&T GSM in Vegas compared to VZW? I know this was an early testbed for ATT GSM, does that mean it would work in the bowels of casinos, etc., that VZW sometimes can manage?

[Rasputin]

Originally Posted by Andy84094

I agree with chefofthefuture!
The original poster, if I'm not mistakes, said his v60i barely dropped calls where his vx 7000 has problems even keeping a signal...my guess would be that the phone has some kind of a problem since it looses the signal in areas where he did not have any problems with his v60i.
I visit Las Vegas frequently, since I have extended family there and never really have any problems.

I go to Vegas about 6 times a year and my wife goes an additional few times a year, I have never had any real coverage issues in Vegas, I was just at the Ritz in Lake Las Vegas, all over Henderson, have used my phone quite a bit on the Strip and in New York, New York, Luxor, Mandalay Bay, 4 seasons, Venetian, Paris, Bellagio, Bally's. I have also used it all over the airport, in North Vegas, summerlin, UNLV and up towards Mt. Charleston and all points in between.

Now I do not live in LV, but my brother inlaws brother lives there and I called him tonight and they do not have any problems with Verizon (he uses the 6000 and she uses the 530) My wife and I use the a670 and used to have the Vx4400.

Might be the phone can you force it to digital and not 1X and see if the problem is the same?

[Andy]

Originally Posted by Rasputin

I go to Vegas about 6 times a year and my wife goes an additional few times a year, I have never had any real coverage issues in Vegas, I was just at the Ritz in Lake Las Vegas, all over Henderson, have used my phone quite a bit on the Strip and in New York, New York, Luxor, Mandalay Bay, 4 seasons, Venetian, Paris, Bellagio, Bally's. I have also used it all over the airport, in North Vegas, summerlin, UNLV and up towards Mt. Charleston and all points in between.

Now I do not live in LV, but my brother inlaws brother lives there and I called him tonight and they do not have any problems with Verizon (he uses the 6000 and she uses the 530) My wife and I use the a670 and used to have the Vx4400.

Might be the phone can you force it to digital and not 1X and see if the problem is the same?

Well, I just don't think it's the network, because I don't have problems and nobody I know has problems there either... I think the original poster should get his phone checked out, or get it swapped for a new one.
~Andy

[SQFreak]

The VX7000 also gives the occasional erronious reading, though it's less common than the 6000 or 4400. I have a friend who has one. His Rx Power here in an RF-resistant building is usually around -075 and Ec/Io around -04.0, though I've seen it as good as -02.5! (My VX4400 at the same time will give around -078 and -04.5.)

[YneBrat]

Well, thanks for all of the responses. Airb330, thanks for confirming my information and sharing your experiences. The fact that you were able to duplicate my problem in DE lends some credence to all of this. I also appreciate your questioning the VX700. But it was your suggestion to consider Sprint that was most intriguing to me. It sent me off on an extended search and re-read of all the posts in the forum debating the pros and cons of Sprint. Wow, folks have some strong feelings on the matter, don’t they! Anyway, I got so busy reading that it kept me from getting back to this thread. In the meantime, you all have given me so many more things to consider.

Chef, I like your idea that Ec/IO should be judged based on an average of readings over time and I want to believe that extreme jumps in the Ec/IO might be bogus readings. (BTW, I also recently saw a -31.5.) The problem, however, is that those extreme jumps seem to correspond to losses of service. I have watched the screen flash those excessive values while having the phone in one second indicate “leaving the service area” and the next second it indicate “entering the service area.” So it appears that even if the accuracy of those readings could be questioned, they still indicate transient changes significant enough to drop the call.

With all due respect, I initially took some of the other posts with a grain of salt. Folks who visit Las Vegas tend to frequent the more populated/popular areas that are well-served by the network. But some of you said you have family here who are having no problems with Verizon and some of you said you know people here who have no problems.

I must admit that my experience with the VX7000 on the major streets and more populated parts of the valley have been good. When I have a signal, the call quality is better than I have ever had. It’s the fringe areas and some indoor locations where I am having trouble and unfortunately, my home is one of those places. I live away from the center of the city in one of the older parts of the valley. Maybe Verizon hasn’t seen a need to extend reliable digital service out here. I do know several people in my immediate area who are having similar problems. Also, one of my co-workers has a VX6000 and he complains about several places where he cannot get good service. Like me, one of those places is his home, but he lives in a different part of town than I do. And as I was talking to him about it yesterday, another co-worker chimed in, saying that her husband is having similar problems with his new Verizon phone.

By the way, I did try forcing the phone to P_REV 4 Only, but the problems continued. I was at the Meadows Mall on Wednesday, and lost a call there while walking down a corridor where other cell phone users while happily chatting away.

I guess I should get the phone checked out. But ultimately, I think I’m feeling a insecure about having a phone that does not include analog service. With my V60i, it seemed I could get a call almost everywhere, even where other Verizon users could not. Then came the day I got the VX7000 and I started having trouble. I noticed that many of you offered examples of people using all-digital handsets being satisified with their service here in Vegas. But it seems that among the people I know who live here, and my prior experience with the V60i, the common denominator is the analog. Maybe the V60i was switching modes whenever the digital signal deteriorated or the network became too busy?

So, at the risk of igniting any more passions, I guess this is bringing me around to Airb300's suggestion to consider Sprint. It seems most of their phones are tri-mode and it looks like they have a lot of digital/analog roaming room here in Las Vegas. Verizon, on the other hand, seems to be pushing mostly all-digital handsets. Maybe it’s a little early for that and the digital network here needs to be built out a little more?

Incidentally, I appreciate the T-Mobile suggestion, but the whole cingular, att, TMO thing that’s going on now makes me nervous.

[chefofthefuture]

Originally Posted by YneBrat

I guess I should get the phone checked out. But ultimately, I think I’m feeling a insecure about having a phone that does not include analog service. .... But it seems that among the people I know who live here, and my prior experience with the V60i, the common denominator is the analog. Maybe the V60i was switching modes whenever the digital signal deteriorated or the network became too busy?

Hmmm.... I don't know about yourself, or the rest of the posters, but there's no question as to when my calls go out to AMPS: it sounds like I'm trying to tune in Radio Moscow. This has been true for all digital phones I've ever had with AMPS backup, save one Sony on Sprint, years ago.

So... I've stopped requiring AMPS for my phones for two reasons...

1. When I end up on AMPS, I hang up and try digital again anyway. I don't want to run down my battery faster and have a bad sounding call. Most of the time that I end up on AMPS, my phone is just freaking out in an area that has fringe digital service anyway. The T720 also has a bad habit of staying on AMPS for a bit after a reasonable digital signal is found again.
   
2. For reliable backup in the wilderness, I'd get Globalstar or a CB or something. In my experience, AMPS has never worked when I've needed it to, and always does work when I don't want it. Modern digital phones have AMPS as an afterthought.... if I really, really felt I needed to stay in touch, I wouldn't rely on those more than I'd rely on the fully digital phone.

edit -- back on the Ec/Io thing again ... it's definitely possible to have spikes that would cut you off, but it doesn't make sense to me that it would be due to overloading of the system. Maybe you're switching rapidly between towers? Also, couldn't it be some kind of external force introducing interference?

[elazarus]

Are the readings the same For GSM and T-mobile or do you use dBm?

If it is solely dBm what is good and what is bad.

Thank you

Elliot

[Andy]

Let's see...
You said you did NOT have any problems with your old v60i...did that phone switch into analog a lot? I have an all digital phone and do travel to Las Vegas a lot, not only the parts where tourists go to, but also residential and fringe areas and don't really have any problems. If you had good service with your v60i, but don't with your VX 7000 that,to me, shows a phone problem, not a service problem, so I would re-think about switching carriers, and if you do try something else, try the new phone everywhere during the trial period.
~Andy

[YneBrat]

It's the phone. I'm virtually certain of it now.

Before I approached the end of my Verizon contract, started researching the best way to use my New Every 2 credit, and found these forums, I was clueless about wireless. I didn't know if my v60i was switching from digital to analog and I really didn't care. I just wanted to know if it worked, and it did.

The VX7000 came highly recommended. Yes, there were reviewers who said they were less than impressed, but in general the good reviews far outweighed the bad. So when I got the VX7000--with all of its newer and supposedly better qualities--and started having problems with reception, I wanted to blame them on the network. Rx and Ec/IO readings notwithstanding, it made sense to me to think that if I was getting a signal with the tri-mode v60i and I was getting no signal with the all-digital VX7000, than the difference had to be the analog. And the difference had to be that the digital network was not as built out as it should be.

This weekend I figured out how to tell if the v60i was going analog or not. Now I know.

I rode around to all of the places I frequent in the valley. I watched both phones and the v60i stayed in digital mode the whole time; it also showed strong signal strength the whole time. In places where the VX7000 had no bars or left the service area, the v60i often had 3 or 4 bars. I only saw the v60i drop down to 1-2 bars on a couple of occasions. I don't know how to bring up a test screen on the v60i, so I couldn't compare its Rx and Ec/IO readings against those of the VX7000, but the bar comparison was so obvious it didn't matter. I guess it's safe to assume that my reception problem lies with the phone.

[Andy]

Originally Posted by YneBrat

It's the phone. I'm virtually certain of it now.

Before I approached the end of my Verizon contract, started researching the best way to use my New Every 2 credit, and found these forums, I was clueless about wireless. I didn't know if my v60i was switching from digital to analog and I really didn't care. I just wanted to know if it worked, and it did.

The VX7000 came highly recommended. Yes, there were reviewers who said they were less than impressed, but in general the good reviews far outweighed the bad. So when I got the VX7000--with all of its newer and supposedly better qualities--and started having problems with reception, I wanted to blame them on the network. Rx and Ec/IO readings notwithstanding, it made sense to me to think that if I was getting a signal with the tri-mode v60i and I was getting no signal with the all-digital VX7000, than the difference had to be the analog. And the difference had to be that the digital network was not as built out as it should be.

This weekend I figured out how to tell if the v60i was going analog or not. Now I know.

I rode around to all of the places I frequent in the valley. I watched both phones and the v60i stayed in digital mode the whole time; it also showed strong signal strength the whole time. In places where the VX7000 had no bars or left the service area, the v60i often had 3 or 4 bars. I only saw the v60i drop down to 1-2 bars on a couple of occasions. I don't know how to bring up a test screen on the v60i, so I couldn't compare its Rx and Ec/IO readings against those of the VX7000, but the bar comparison was so obvious it didn't matter. I guess it's safe to assume that my reception problem lies with the phone.

Well I told you immediately that if your v60 worked great in places your VX 7000 does not work, then it HAS to be the phone, the network does not deteriorate that much overnight, Verizon would never let their network(especially their Las Vegas network) deteriorate that much, and it can't happen overnight either. Their Las Vegas network is great anyways.
Try getting it swapped out for a new one at the Verizon store; tell them what kind of observations you are making and say you'd like that VX 7000 swapped out.
Good luck,
Andy

[YneBrat]

Originally Posted by Andy84094

Well I told you immediately that if your v60 worked great in places your VX 7000 does not work, then it HAS to be the phone, the network does not deteriorate that much overnight, Verizon would never let their network(especially their Las Vegas network) deteriorate that much, and it can't happen overnight either. Their Las Vegas network is great anyways.
Try getting it swapped out for a new one at the Verizon store; tell them what kind of observations you are making and say you'd like that VX 7000 swapped out.
Good luck,
Andy

I appreciate your help. I guess I just had to see it for myself.

But now I might be on my way over to another thread. Verizon's NE2 brought me right back to them at the end of my contract and until I had the trouble with this latest phone, I didn't bother looking around at any other carriers. I really hate that VZW went to 9 pm nights and I found that unlike VZW, some companies are offering 7 pm options. I make a lot of calls during that period and VZW's change forced me to go to a much higher rate plan than I really need. So right now I'm thinking less about swapping phones and more about switching carriers.

[Andy]

Originally Posted by YneBrat

I appreciate your help. I guess I just had to see it for myself.

But now I might be on my way over to another thread. Verizon's NE2 brought me right back to them at the end of my contract and until I had the trouble with this latest phone, I didn't bother looking around at any other carriers. I really hate that VZW went to 9 pm nights and I found that unlike VZW, some companies are offering 7 pm options. I make a lot of calls during that period and VZW's change forced me to go to a much higher rate plan than I really need. So right now I'm thinking less about swapping phones and more about switching carriers.

Well, if you really do talk that much between 7 and 9, then I guess some other carrier might fit you better if their coverage, etc. is the same.
It can be hard, all I can tell you is that if you decide to try something new, try the new carrier in as many places as you can before your trial period is over.

Andy

[YneBrat]

Though I have recently been tempted to switch, the thoughts in "Lessons of switching . . . again," http://forums.wirelessadvisor.com/showthread.php?t=3850 have been on my mind. Great post.

So I sat down with my old bills and actually caluclated out my 7-9pm usage. I decided I'm not making quite as many calls as I thought and I can actually go down a rate level! With that issue resolved, I'm otherwise happy with VZW. So I went to the VZW store and swapped my VX7000 for a new one. Unfortunately, I got the exact same results as above. I guess that model is not for me. I wish it was, because I really like all of its other features.

I'm thinking about trying the a670. Folks in this forum seem to be gushing over it's great reception. Some have compared it well to the v60i.

[Jodi]

Originally Posted by YneBrat

I'm thinking about trying the a670. Folks in this forum seem to be gushing over it's great reception. Some have compared it well to the v60i.

I'm one of these gushers who's switched from the v60i to the a670. If you want to PM me, I'd be happy to discuss pros/cons further....

[chefofthefuture]

Originally Posted by Jodi

I'm one of these gushers who's switched from the v60i to the a670. If you want to PM me, I'd be happy to discuss pros/cons further....

Jodi, please post 'em here -- since losing the vx6000, I'm looking at moving to that phone too.

Yne, I'm glad the "lessons" post helped out. Doing the math on things like M2M and night minutes, adding in the ETF, etc. is best way I've found to figure out what to do.

[Andy]

Whatever you decide on, Good Luck and keep us posted

Andy