T-Mobile Sim Card

[Jim]

Is it possible to buy a Tmobile Sim card with the same phone number as the one I already have?
I have 2 cell phones & would like to use both of them without changing cards all the time.

[njsvrzncdma]

you cant have two sim cards on one number. The system wont let you activate both sim numbers to one account

[Jim]

Thanks for the info. If you buy one of the SIM cards on EBAY, does a number come with them????

[njsvrzncdma]

if you are talking about a phone number then no. The sim cards get programmed after you acftivate service with the carrier. the sim number goes into the computer and the computer then associates a phone number to it.

[Ignaurus13]

Having 2 SIMS with the same phone number is completely possible with the right equipment and some SIM cloning. As long as the original SIM utilizes COMP128V1 algoryth to code KI key, it can be done. I do it myself so I dont have to swap SIMs between phones and PDA devices. COMP128V2 algoryth to code KI key is not possible to crack yet and I believe is used by AT&T (tried, cant do it). You can not make simultaneous phone calls on all cloned SIMS at the same time so you can only really use one at a time. Please note...SIM cloning is useful for activities other then theft and technically is not illegal as long as the phone account is only used by the subscriber.

[njsvrzncdma]

while thats true not all of us have the equipment or know how. In actuality most things are possible its jsut whats possible for the "regular guy"

[bobolito]

Need I remind you that SIM cloning is the same as cloning the ESN in other phones which is illegal. The SIM card technology was invented so that we can easily switch from one device to another without calling the service provider. Now it seems that changing a SIM is too hard to do.

[njsvrzncdma]

adn your right its still illegal no matter what u use it for. either yourself or otherwise. hence my first reason (it cant be done)

[polonius]

It's most definitely NOT illegal, and it most certainly is technically possible -- I have one sim in my handset and a second in my car. Almost every operator allows you to have at least two sims (often marketed as "twin card" or some such name), and some of them allow you to have many more -- Vodafone UK, up to 10! I would buy a third SIM card for my laptop if my provider would allow it, but at present they limit you to 2. "cloning" for the purpose of FRAUD is illegal, as any fraud is illegal, but there is certainly no law against having two sim cards sharing an MSISDN. Nothing I am doing could be constituted as fraud by even the most creative prosecutor -- I bought them both from the operator and use them with their full knowledge.

That said, I don't know if t-mobile USA offers the product. I know they do in the UK, Germany, Poland, Czech Republic and Austria. But if they don't, it's because they won't, not because they can't.

[Ignaurus13]

Frequent Sim cad switching isn't difficult, but puts excess wear and tear on the chip. Its like an old ATM card that been used way too often...sometimes the atm wont accept it no matter how many times u try because it cannot read the magnetic strip.

Fraud is illegal. I agree. Cloning your own card and using just for yourself is not. Realistically, what carrier is going to take you to court over this supposed crime against yourself. Too busy catching real criminals and making sales.

[njsvrzncdma]

true but still illegal none the less

[Ignaurus13]

I'd like to know exactly what statute states that cloning a SIM card for personal, non-fraud use is illegal. The law on fraudulent use of a hi-jacked KI or ESN is crystal clear. You can't infer that all SIM cloning is illegal and constitiutes fraud.

[njsvrzncdma]

its obvious that your not going to get caught if you do it for youself only. they think of it as..well if you can do it for yourself then you can do it for others. so it was all made illegal.

[polonius]

Enough with this! I am generally hesitant to say that anything another member posts is flat out wrong, but it is MOST DEFINITELY NOT illegal to have multiple SIMs with the same MSISDN! As I said, I have two myself and I am no lawbreaker!! Almost EVERY operator offers this!! (And the posts that say it's "impossible" are even more wrong!).

This forum is a great source of information, but it also seems to be a source of disinformation as well!

[bobolito]

Polonius, we're are talking about US laws here, so European laws do not apply. Come and play cloning DirecTV cards here and you'll get minimun a $10,000 Federal fine!.

[polonius]

Cloning a DirecTV card is specifically prohibted in the US by the Digital Millenium copyright act, which makes such actions illegal even if there no fraud or intent to de-fraud. The US is the only jurisdiction to have such an act, and no other part of US law makes this illegal (violating a copyright of course is always illegal, but that's the difference between actually violating, and owning equipment that is intended to facilitate such violations). That law SPECIFICALLy refers to acquiring or attempting to acquire INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY protected by copyright, e.g., tv shows, music, etc. Any prosecutor would have a hard time convincing a jury that having two SIMS was done for the purpose of acquiring copyrighted content, and that certainly was not the intent of that act. And in that case, it would be the act of bootlegging (say someone was using a cell phone to tape a concert) itself, not the fact a duplicate SIM was used, that constituted the violation. "Content" (i.e. a conversation) shared over mobile networks is general "authored" by the user, and the DMC act says nothing about this.

And of course there is nothing about the act that says DirecTV couldn't offer you a duplicate card if they wanted to offer you the possibility of having two receivers on one subscription -- say one in the bedroom, one in the living room -- as long as you didn't use both simultaneously.

I would check with TMO rep - I would be very surprised if they do not offer it. Almost everyone does.

Also, the other issue I contested was that this was "impossible", one author saying the "system won't let two SIMs register on the system". It won't let two register simultaneously, but there is no theoretical limit on the number of SIMs out there, each with a unique IMSI, that share the same MSISDN.

[njsvrzncdma]

what i ws aying was the fact that you cant activate two sims on an account for the same number. I used to work for corporate cingular in the NYC GSM market. It cant be done the computer has ONE slot for the sim and ONE slot for the imei. Thats all i was saying. now if you cloned that sim number then obviously you can have two phones with the same number now couldnt you. take a zanex its just a sim.

[bobolito]

There's a difference between having a duplicate SIM card (cloned) and a SECONDARY SIM on the same phone number. In the case of the duplicated (cloned) SIM, when you power up both phones, the system will see the same IMSI twice, hence an attempt to register the same SIM card twice and I don't think the system will let you get away with that. It will abruptly de-register the first registered SIM because it will see a second registration attempt from the same SIM. Re-registering the clone will de-register the original which means you cannot use them at the same time. Therefore, I don't see the advantage/purpose of having a cloned SIM. You may not be stealing intellectual property by doing this, but you will be going around security measures imposed by the wireless provider to prevent fraud and I don't think this is exactly legal. Therefore, no cellphone provider does this. It is just as easy to just switch the SIM from one phone to the other. But then again, I guess some people are getting so lazy that they even find this hard to do. Another thing, you may successfully create a SIM clone just to find out that the network has a clone detection system that will suspend your account because the system will think this is a fraud attempt.

Now, if your provider gives you another (SECOND) SIM card with the same programming (same cell phone number), that's a different story. The system will know those are TWO different SIM cards because the IMSI will be different although they are programmed for the same phone number/account. There's nothing wrong with this since the service provider is doing this. Same case with DirecTV. If they give you a secondary DTV Card for your bedroom TV unit, that is NOT a duplicate card. Instead, that is a secondary card with the same programming, but still it is a different card since it has a different CAM ID. This way, they can provide you with different programming on the different TV's or shutdown just one if you wanted to. If the cards were simply cloned, they would not be able to do this.

[polonius]

Yes, exactly -- two or more SIMs, two or more IMSI, one MSISDN, and ONLY ONE connected simultaneously -- you have to shut off the first before you can switch on the second and v.v. -- which was exactly the question posed by the original poster who like many are interested in having one sim for handheld and a 2nd, 3rd or 4th for car, PDA, data card, whatever.

ALMOST EVERY operator offers this service see: TIM Twin or Turkcell

An article explaining the difference between SIM card cloning and the twin card producthere (unfortunately only in Russian)

BTW, you can ALSO have two MSISDNs on one card -- so you can have home and work numbers ring on the same handset, for example. And no, I don't know if you have both numbers on two different cards!

[ZaphodB]

Originally posted by: Ignaurus13
I'd like to know exactly what statute states that cloning a SIM card for personal, non-fraud use is illegal. The law on fraudulent use of a hi-jacked KI or ESN is crystal clear. You can't infer that all SIM cloning is illegal and constitiutes fraud.

18 USC § 1029(a)(9):

[Whoever] knowingly uses, produces, traffics in, has control or custody of, or possesses hardware or software, knowing it has been configured to insert or modify telecommunication identifying information associated with or contained in a telecommunications instrument so that such instrument may be used to obtain telecommunications service without authorization... [shall, if the offense affects interstate or foreign commerce, be punished as provided in subsection (c) of this section.]

18 USC § 1029(c)(1)(A)(ii):

[Generally -- The punishment for an offense under subsection (a) of this section is --] if the offense is under paragraph (4), (5), (8), or (9), of subsection (a), a fine under this title or imprisonment for not more than 15 years, or both;

18 USC § 1029(e)(9)

[As used in this section--] the term "telecommunications service" has the meaning given such term in section 3 of title I of the Communications Act of 1934 ( 47 U.S.C. 153);

18 USC § 1029(e)(11):

[As used in this section--] the term "telecommunication identifying information" means electronic serial number or any other number or signal that identifies a specific telecomunications instrument or account, or a specific communication transmitted from a telecommunications instrument.

47 USC § 153(46):

[For the purposes of this chapter, unless the context otherwise requires --] The term ''telecommunications service'' means the offering of telecommunications for a fee directly to the public, or to such classes of users as to be effectively available directly to the public, regardless of the facilities used.

47 USC § 153(43):

[For the purposes of this chapter, unless the context otherwise requires --] The term ''telecommunications'' means the transmission, between or among points specified by the user, of information of the user's choosing, without change in the form or content of the information as sent and received.


Thus, while cloning a SIM without intent to defraud is not per se illegal, nor possession of a cloned SIM card without said intent, possession of the equipment to clone for any reason is illegal. The interstate commerce thing is easily taken care of by a number of allegations, amoung which could be if the cloned SIM were used to place an interstate or international call; if the original SIM was provided by a telecommunications service with their principal office in a different state; if the equipment were bought from someone in a different state, et al. It could also be argued that merely possessing a cloned SIM consitutes a receipt of stolen goods, as "fruit of the poisonous tree" from the violation of 18 USC § 1029(a)(9).

Also, the "without authorization" clause at the end of 18 USC § 1029(a)(9) is borne out by the fact that no wireless provider in the U.S. is willing to do it, and I'm sure that were they asked to do so in this fictional matter, any of the GSM providers doing business in the U.S. would be happy to contribute a deposition saying that the use of the cloned SIM is unauthorized.

[Ignaurus13]

Based on the law stated, a wireless carrier might keep you in litigation (yikes! expensive), but could not prove fraud if you are using your own KI from your own SIM and paying for all charges generated from this KI. As for authorization, as long as I am the subscriber, am the only user of the KI, not commiting fraud, and pay my cell phone bill, I would have all the authorization in the world. As for the legality of owning cloning equipment, all that is required is a PC and a GSM card reader. I think most GSM fans have these items. Is it not illegal to own a PC, but it is very illegal to commit fraud using a PC. Unfortunately, cloning your own SIM for personal use is not fraud. A deposition by a cell company would only be a court notation, not an extention or interpretation of the law. If we allowed only the carrier to interpret the law, I am sure that they would deem the use of cell phones not purchased from them as unauthorized.

I understand the security reasoning to support only one SIM. I dont think the risk is twice as large if a user had 2 SIMS.If you lose a one of the 2 SIM, just report it to the carrier. Its would be the same as if you lost your single SIM card today.

Polonius mentioned some products used in Europe to allow for use on 2 SIMS for one phone number. Only one can be used at a time. Unfortunately they are not available or supported by any carrier in the United States. I doubt it will be available anytime soon.

I know about only being able to register once. One registration is all I need. I turn one device off before I turn another on. I havent gotten my account suspended yet...it is always a possibility.


Bobolito...its not about being lazy. Removing and reinserting SIM can damage the card....excessive wear and tear. Plus, I need to remove the cover, the battery , and use tweezers to get a SIM out of a Nokia 5190. It's not always quick and easy, I do have big fat fingers which make it even tougher. Plus I travel with a phone and a PDA. I dont want to take them apart on the road just to switch the SIM. I'm not being lazy, I 'd just rather spend my time doing other stuff...like reading wirelessadvisor.com threads! [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

[polonius]

Originally posted by: ZaphodB

18 USC § 1029(a)(9):

[Whoever] knowingly uses, produces, traffics in, has control or custody of, or possesses hardware or software, knowing it has been configured to insert or modify telecommunication identifying information associated with or contained in a telecommunications instrument so that such instrument may be used to obtain telecommunications service without authorization... [shall, if the offense affects interstate or foreign commerce, be punished as provided in subsection (c) of this section.]


Thus, while cloning a SIM without intent to defraud is not per se illegal, nor possession of a cloned SIM card without said intent, possession of the equipment to clone for any reason is illegal. The interstate commerce thing is easily taken care of by a number of allegations, amoung which could be if the cloned SIM were used to place an interstate or international call; if the original SIM was provided by a telecommunications service with their principal office in a different state; if the equipment were bought from someone in a different state, et al. It could also be argued that merely possessing a cloned SIM consitutes a receipt of stolen goods, as "fruit of the poisonous tree" from the violation of 18 USC § 1029(a)(9).

Also, the "without authorization" clause at the end of 18 USC § 1029(a)(9) is borne out by the fact that no wireless provider in the U.S. is willing to do it, and I'm sure that were they asked to do so in this fictional matter, any of the GSM providers doing business in the U.S. would be happy to contribute a deposition saying that the use of the cloned SIM is unauthorized.

I wouldn't read the possession of the equipment "for any reason" as illegal, IF the equipment could not be used to create a SIM that could be use to "obtain telecommunications service WITHOUT AUTHORISATION." A subscriber duplicating a SIM in the manner discussed on this board would still be billed for and pay for their service -- the switch would just recognise it as the original SIM.

In any case, if TMO is not offering a "twin card" product, I don't think it's because of legal barriers. They're generally last with any new product -- I had GPRS for two full years before I could use it the USA. They probably just haven't gotten around to it yet.

[ZaphodB]

The wonderful and terrible thing about American jurisprudence, polonius, is that our legislators tend to overgeneralise. Thus, when they say possession or custody of the equipment is illegal, it justifies legal action. Bear in mind that it's not whether you actually get a prison term that counts... the big bugaboos of the criminal justice system are a) financial ruin, and b) stigma. You'll end up doing at least 1 night of time in gaol while they arraign you.

[polonius]

If it IS illegal, then every visitor coming to the US using a twin card is breaking the law -- and I would imagine there are millions of them.