WirelessAdvisor.com

spanky · 02-05-2003, 8:48 AM

A question:

I know on CDMA networks, as call traffic increases on a cell, the "coverage area" of that cell begins to shrink, and at a certain point of saturation, call degradation begins to occur.

My question is, would call degradation (by which I mean a drop in call clarity, pops, warbles, etc.) occur before the coverage area begins to shrink for a particular cell?

What I have seem to find is that in rural areas where I use my phone, and I know there are few towers, I can have 4-5 bars reception on my phone but still have poor call quality - my hypothesis is that the few cells in the area are overloaded resulting in degradation.

Of course, the other cause could be that the VX-10 I'm using measures signal to noise ratio with its reception meter as opposed to actual signal strength, like the old Nokia 6185 did - but I don't believe this to be the case.

Can anyone either confirm or dismiss this?

Thanks in advance!

spanky

bobolito · 02-05-2003, 10:15 AM

It could be several factors. It may be that in that particular area they are not using the enhanced EVRC codec. Since you said it is a rural area they may not have upgraded it. Also, it may be that the other person with who you are talking to is in a weak area or noisy at the moment you are having the conversation. Then, it could be multipath interference, noise in the channel....who knows?

spanky · 02-05-2003, 10:46 AM

Thanks, bobolito....

right after I posted the question, I realized it was a bit open ended..... I'm sure there are many, many factors that could contribute, I think I'll pick sunspots.

My only aggravation is that in my area we recently did a TDMA to CDMA switch (w/ USCC). With my old TDMA (3360) phone, I never had the same problems than I am experiencing now from the same locations - if the phone said I had poor siganl strenght - odds are my call quality would suffer a bit - on the other hand, when signal strength appeared strong, generally my calls were quite clear. Whereas with my VX-10 CDMA phone - this doesn't seem to be the case singnal strenght seems to be independent of any type of call quality.

Its probably more of an issue with phones than underlying technology, but with all the great reviews the VX-10 has been getting as far as call clairty & reception, I feel like maybe it was a factor with CDMA (it could be the codec as you mentioned).

oh well.... at least it all works.......

s.

northform · 02-05-2003, 6:28 PM

CDMA to mobile calls have poor quality.

In rural areas you're not going to have an overcapacity degradation.

The EVRC codec doesn't sound as good as the original 13kbps codec, but is a great improvement over the standard 8kbps codec.

Airb330 · 02-05-2003, 10:28 PM

In your opinion CDMA calls to mobiles lack. I find it vastly superior to the crappy Cingular TDMA here in Delaware, and T-Mobile is a joke. In my rural area, I have 4 bars inside someitmes, then 1....its my wierd LG 510...my old Nokia always had 2-3 bars inside, while both have full outside.

spanky · 02-06-2003, 8:13 AM

Airb330-

BINGO! I'm experiencing the same phenomenon with my VX-10. Inside the signal strength is all over the place, as with my last two Nokias - it was a solid reading.

I'm really starting to think that my VX-10 is a bit flaky - outside, however, the phone performs wonderfully! But since I'm inside 90% of my day at work.....

just wish Nokia would expand their CDMA phone selection.......

s.

eagle63 · 02-13-2003, 12:40 PM

Quote:

In your opinion CDMA calls to mobiles lack. I find it vastly superior to the crappy Cingular TDMA here in Delaware, and T-Mobile is a joke

T-Mobile is a joke? hmmm. I guess I've never used T-Mobile in Deleware, but in other places I've used it it's been terrific. Far better than Sprint.

Airb330 · 02-15-2003, 7:34 PM

Yes T-Mobile is a joke in Delaware, I am not going to lie! Notice I said Delaware...not everywhere. Spanky the odd thing is it is JUST the stupid bars. I still get the same amount of reception (test screen, same DB levels) it is just the LG's bars are stupid. I can have a really good signal, and it says 1 bar, makes a call fine, sounds great. It is just the signal indicator. I can have an -87DB level (pretty good), and it be 6/6bars. Then have and 88DB level and it be 1 bar....it is just LG. They get fine reception...just they don't show it correctly. My LG sounds way better than my 5185i.

EDIT: I have about had it with Verizon! My phone sounds better out in the country with 1-4 bars, than in town with 5-6. I get a bad fu**in' echo...grr! I wish some other company had good prepay. It started within the last month, and I know it's not my phone since it works fine when there is only a few towers around.. My LG sounds way better than my 5185i.

jayc · 02-15-2003, 9:03 PM

Have you called customer care to report your problem?

Airb330 · 02-17-2003, 11:59 PM

You mean about my odd signal jumps? No, its just the phone, the RF is still about the same as the Nokia, its just the diagram on the phone is retarded, it still has good signal. You are probably referring to my echo problem, no I have not called because they will blame it on my phone. I got it off EBAY and they will say thats why, blah, blah. And it will be a waste. It's not just my phone either, Verizon's quality stinks anymore at full stregnth, which makes no sense! It sounds better out in the country, with less strength.

spanky · 02-18-2003, 8:16 AM

Airb330:

Maybe LG has their signal strength meter set up like nokia did on the 6185 - it measured signal to noise ratio - thus you could be sitting right next to the tower your hitting and still only get one bar, because there is too much interferrece or whatnot. but you could be in the country 15 miles away from a tower but still get 6 bars due to no interference.....

just a thought.

BTW - How do you get your 510 into test mode?

thanks!

spanky

pogo · 02-19-2003, 9:36 AM

CDMA systems have been known to have echoing problems in cities. Too many towers in an area can cause this problem. Cell providers have had a tough time solving this problem in the past due to the fact that the more cell phones used in an area and more building means more towers are neccessary, but the more cell tower signals being picked up by your cell phone can cause the call to degrade and have more echoing problems.

Thus, that may be why your call sound better in the country will a lower signal strength than by a city with a high signal strength.

Airb330 · 02-19-2003, 12:38 PM

LG Test menu. Menu 3, six 0's, brings up a secret menu. That 'secret' menu one pushes 2, then 1. Brings up the test screen. The odd thing is, my -DB level can be 84(good) and be at 6/6bars, then 85(still good) and it be at 3/6 bars! Dang phone freaks me out sometimes! Also...if I put it in my pocket, almost always goes to one bar. Yeah, my pants ARE NOT made out of lead or something lol. Pogo thanks for the info, I heard it before, and was hoping its not the case, like I said they haven't added towers so they must have done something wrong!

michiganeric · 02-19-2003, 4:19 PM

Huh, I haven't had a problem with echoes on my Verizon phone for many months now, even when my phone is clearly talking to a whole bunch of towers at once. It looks like my phone has its signal strength bars programmed the same way as yours, reflecting the Ec/Io reading (a measure of signal quality on CDMA) rather than the signal strength in dBm.

--
Eric

NYCDru · 02-21-2003, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Airb330
LG Test menu. Menu 3, six 0's, brings up a secret menu. That 'secret' menu one pushes 2, then 1. Brings up the test screen. The odd thing is, my -DB level can be 84(good) and be at 6/6bars, then 85(still good) and it be at 3/6 bars! Dang phone freaks me out sometimes! Also...if I put it in my pocket, almost always goes to one bar. Yeah, my pants ARE NOT made out of lead or something lol. Pogo thanks for the info, I heard it before, and was hoping its not the case, like I said they haven't added towers so they must have done something wrong!

-85 is good???

To get down that low i have to go into the central core of my office building. (were the elevators, stairs, bathrooms, and the buildings central pillars) What do you guys consider weak for a Vx10 then?

Airb330 · 02-21-2003, 2:06 PM

Well the lower one is the better as far as I know. In town it's around 85-90, since the tower is still 2 miles away (Verizon took out the tower near me, along with T-Mo! [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img]) And out here in the country at my moms house the phone reads -103 right now, but it varies from 95 to 107. Never breaks up though, sounds fine. HEY....NO SERVICE now....wtf! Great....looks like our nearest tower is down....grr I swear I am going to Cingular for postpay. Verizon is getting retarded, and I am tired of these f-in echoes.

bobolito · 02-21-2003, 8:12 PM

As soon as your dB's enter the 100's the signal is considered weak or bad. Under a varying number of conditions you can expect call degradation at this level. Most carriers use -102dBm as a reference point to decide what's the minimum acceptable signal level to achieve quality coverage. A very conservative reading IMO.

northform · 02-21-2003, 10:20 PM

I never experienced echoing when I had Verizon except in the first 5 seconds sometimes. I think it might have been caused by the auto volume leveling feature of the phone though.

By the way, echoing isn't caused by the phone talking to more than one tower at a time. Only one tower actually handles your call at a time (yes, with CDMA). The phone does connect to new towers before it switches to them to make sure that the new tower is getting a better signal than the current tower and that everything is kosher, but more than one tower never transmit your call to you or the third party at the same time.

----------------------------
I can't believe that a company would create a mobile without voice dial. Back to Amazon you go Siemens.

Airb330 · 02-22-2003, 11:30 AM

I would say 102 is very conservative. The echoing only happens for about the first 10 seconds of any conversation, unless I am at the mall....then it is 24/7. I have just about had it with Verizon and their crap, I swear they only have 10 towers in my state and they rely on them. Soon Sprint is going to out-do them here if they don't come the heck on and build some more. Sprint has a tower way out here in the middle of nowhere, full strength while Verizon was merely at one bar. Too bad that tower is just too far away from my house though [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img]. Oh, Northform I don't have that automatic gain control thing on, it sounds crappy and way too loud most of the time. And I am sorry you don't like your Siemans I see....and yeah I can't comprehend why they would leave out voice dial either [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img].

NYCDru · 02-24-2003, 5:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Airb330
I would say 102 is very conservative. The echoing only happens for about the first 10 seconds of any conversation, unless I am at the mall....then it is 24/7. I have just about had it with Verizon and their crap, I swear they only have 10 towers in my state and they rely on them. Soon Sprint is going to out-do them here if they don't come the heck on and build some more. Sprint has a tower way out here in the middle of nowhere, full strength while Verizon was merely at one bar. Too bad that tower is just too far away from my house though [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img]. Oh, Northform I don't have that automatic gain control thing on, it sounds crappy and way too loud most of the time. And I am sorry you don't like your Siemans I see....and yeah I can't comprehend why they would leave out voice dial either [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img].

I am going to throw out a wild guess. Voice Dialing is very usefull in countries were people dirve. Perhaps in Korea?(is that ere LG is based?) people don't drive. Thats just my wild theory. POick apart as you wish.

Airb330 · 02-24-2003, 10:09 PM

I guess Dru, makes sense to me. I only use voice dial when I drive. Otherwise, I'd just rather use the keypad.

02-05-2003, 8:48 AM	#1
spanky Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 150 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	CDMA Call Degradation A question: I know on CDMA networks, as call traffic increases on a cell, the "coverage area" of that cell begins to shrink, and at a certain point of saturation, call degradation begins to occur. My question is, would call degradation (by which I mean a drop in call clarity, pops, warbles, etc.) occur before the coverage area begins to shrink for a particular cell? What I have seem to find is that in rural areas where I use my phone, and I know there are few towers, I can have 4-5 bars reception on my phone but still have poor call quality - my hypothesis is that the few cells in the area are overloaded resulting in degradation. Of course, the other cause could be that the VX-10 I'm using measures signal to noise ratio with its reception meter as opposed to actual signal strength, like the old Nokia 6185 did - but I don't believe this to be the case. Can anyone either confirm or dismiss this? Thanks in advance! spanky

02-05-2003, 10:15 AM	#2
bobolito iPhone 3G 16GB (White) Join Date: May 2002 Location: in front of my computer Posts: 12,543 Phone(s): iPhone 3G, Sierra 875 3G Aircard Provider(s): AT&T Mobility Devices: WiFi cards/Access points Thanks: 3 Thanked 17 Times in 14 Posts Images: 50 My Auctions	CDMA Call Degradation It could be several factors. It may be that in that particular area they are not using the enhanced EVRC codec. Since you said it is a rural area they may not have upgraded it. Also, it may be that the other person with who you are talking to is in a weak area or noisy at the moment you are having the conversation. Then, it could be multipath interference, noise in the channel....who knows? __________________

02-05-2003, 10:46 AM	Original Poster #3
spanky Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 150 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	CDMA Call Degradation Thanks, bobolito.... right after I posted the question, I realized it was a bit open ended..... I'm sure there are many, many factors that could contribute, I think I'll pick sunspots. My only aggravation is that in my area we recently did a TDMA to CDMA switch (w/ USCC). With my old TDMA (3360) phone, I never had the same problems than I am experiencing now from the same locations - if the phone said I had poor siganl strenght - odds are my call quality would suffer a bit - on the other hand, when signal strength appeared strong, generally my calls were quite clear. Whereas with my VX-10 CDMA phone - this doesn't seem to be the case singnal strenght seems to be independent of any type of call quality. Its probably more of an issue with phones than underlying technology, but with all the great reviews the VX-10 has been getting as far as call clairty & reception, I feel like maybe it was a factor with CDMA (it could be the codec as you mentioned). oh well.... at least it all works....... s.

02-05-2003, 6:28 PM	#4
northform Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 891 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	CDMA Call Degradation CDMA to mobile calls have poor quality. In rural areas you're not going to have an overcapacity degradation. The EVRC codec doesn't sound as good as the original 13kbps codec, but is a great improvement over the standard 8kbps codec.

02-05-2003, 10:28 PM	#5
Airb330 Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Philadelphia, PA Posts: 3,526 Phone(s): BB 8330 Provider(s): Sprint PCS Devices: iPod Nano (Black), XM Radio Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Images: 3	CDMA Call Degradation In your opinion CDMA calls to mobiles lack. I find it vastly superior to the crappy Cingular TDMA here in Delaware, and T-Mobile is a joke. In my rural area, I have 4 bars inside someitmes, then 1....its my wierd LG 510...my old Nokia always had 2-3 bars inside, while both have full outside.

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02-06-2003, 8:13 AM	Original Poster #6
spanky Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 150 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	CDMA Call Degradation Airb330- BINGO! I'm experiencing the same phenomenon with my VX-10. Inside the signal strength is all over the place, as with my last two Nokias - it was a solid reading. I'm really starting to think that my VX-10 is a bit flaky - outside, however, the phone performs wonderfully! But since I'm inside 90% of my day at work..... just wish Nokia would expand their CDMA phone selection....... s.

02-15-2003, 7:34 PM	#8
Airb330 Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Philadelphia, PA Posts: 3,526 Phone(s): BB 8330 Provider(s): Sprint PCS Devices: iPod Nano (Black), XM Radio Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Images: 3	CDMA Call Degradation Yes T-Mobile is a joke in Delaware, I am not going to lie! Notice I said Delaware...not everywhere. Spanky the odd thing is it is JUST the stupid bars. I still get the same amount of reception (test screen, same DB levels) it is just the LG's bars are stupid. I can have a really good signal, and it says 1 bar, makes a call fine, sounds great. It is just the signal indicator. I can have an -87DB level (pretty good), and it be 6/6bars. Then have and 88DB level and it be 1 bar....it is just LG. They get fine reception...just they don't show it correctly. My LG sounds way better than my 5185i. EDIT: I have about had it with Verizon! My phone sounds better out in the country with 1-4 bars, than in town with 5-6. I get a bad fu**in' echo...grr! I wish some other company had good prepay. It started within the last month, and I know it's not my phone since it works fine when there is only a few towers around.. My LG sounds way better than my 5185i.

02-15-2003, 9:03 PM	#9
jayc Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Johnson City, TN Posts: 1,418 Phone(s): Samsung A670, LG VX6100, AirPrime PC 5220 Provider(s): Verizon Wireless Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	CDMA Call Degradation Have you called customer care to report your problem?

02-17-2003, 11:59 PM	#10
Airb330 Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Philadelphia, PA Posts: 3,526 Phone(s): BB 8330 Provider(s): Sprint PCS Devices: iPod Nano (Black), XM Radio Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Images: 3	CDMA Call Degradation You mean about my odd signal jumps? No, its just the phone, the RF is still about the same as the Nokia, its just the diagram on the phone is retarded, it still has good signal. You are probably referring to my echo problem, no I have not called because they will blame it on my phone. I got it off EBAY and they will say thats why, blah, blah. And it will be a waste. It's not just my phone either, Verizon's quality stinks anymore at full stregnth, which makes no sense! It sounds better out in the country, with less strength.

02-18-2003, 8:16 AM	Original Poster #11
spanky Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 150 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	CDMA Call Degradation Airb330: Maybe LG has their signal strength meter set up like nokia did on the 6185 - it measured signal to noise ratio - thus you could be sitting right next to the tower your hitting and still only get one bar, because there is too much interferrece or whatnot. but you could be in the country 15 miles away from a tower but still get 6 bars due to no interference..... just a thought. BTW - How do you get your 510 into test mode? thanks! spanky

02-19-2003, 9:36 AM	#12
pogo Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 53 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	CDMA Call Degradation CDMA systems have been known to have echoing problems in cities. Too many towers in an area can cause this problem. Cell providers have had a tough time solving this problem in the past due to the fact that the more cell phones used in an area and more building means more towers are neccessary, but the more cell tower signals being picked up by your cell phone can cause the call to degrade and have more echoing problems. Thus, that may be why your call sound better in the country will a lower signal strength than by a city with a high signal strength.

02-19-2003, 12:38 PM	#13
Airb330 Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Philadelphia, PA Posts: 3,526 Phone(s): BB 8330 Provider(s): Sprint PCS Devices: iPod Nano (Black), XM Radio Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Images: 3	CDMA Call Degradation LG Test menu. Menu 3, six 0's, brings up a secret menu. That 'secret' menu one pushes 2, then 1. Brings up the test screen. The odd thing is, my -DB level can be 84(good) and be at 6/6bars, then 85(still good) and it be at 3/6 bars! Dang phone freaks me out sometimes! Also...if I put it in my pocket, almost always goes to one bar. Yeah, my pants ARE NOT made out of lead or something lol. Pogo thanks for the info, I heard it before, and was hoping its not the case, like I said they haven't added towers so they must have done something wrong!

02-19-2003, 4:19 PM	#14
michiganeric Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Michigan Posts: 86 Phone(s): Samsung E105, Nokia 6190 (Voicestream), Motorola 8000 (The Brick), a few bag phones Provider(s): T-Mobile (formerly VZW and Nextel) Devices: Far more than I need Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	CDMA Call Degradation Huh, I haven't had a problem with echoes on my Verizon phone for many months now, even when my phone is clearly talking to a whole bunch of towers at once. It looks like my phone has its signal strength bars programmed the same way as yours, reflecting the Ec/Io reading (a measure of signal quality on CDMA) rather than the signal strength in dBm. -- Eric

02-21-2003, 2:06 PM	#16
Airb330 Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Philadelphia, PA Posts: 3,526 Phone(s): BB 8330 Provider(s): Sprint PCS Devices: iPod Nano (Black), XM Radio Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Images: 3	CDMA Call Degradation Well the lower one is the better as far as I know. In town it's around 85-90, since the tower is still 2 miles away (Verizon took out the tower near me, along with T-Mo! [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img]) And out here in the country at my moms house the phone reads -103 right now, but it varies from 95 to 107. Never breaks up though, sounds fine. HEY....NO SERVICE now....wtf! Great....looks like our nearest tower is down....grr I swear I am going to Cingular for postpay. Verizon is getting retarded, and I am tired of these f-in echoes.

02-21-2003, 8:12 PM	#17
bobolito iPhone 3G 16GB (White) Join Date: May 2002 Location: in front of my computer Posts: 12,543 Phone(s): iPhone 3G, Sierra 875 3G Aircard Provider(s): AT&T Mobility Devices: WiFi cards/Access points Thanks: 3 Thanked 17 Times in 14 Posts Images: 50 My Auctions	CDMA Call Degradation As soon as your dB's enter the 100's the signal is considered weak or bad. Under a varying number of conditions you can expect call degradation at this level. Most carriers use -102dBm as a reference point to decide what's the minimum acceptable signal level to achieve quality coverage. A very conservative reading IMO. __________________

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02-21-2003, 10:20 PM	#18
northform Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 891 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	CDMA Call Degradation I never experienced echoing when I had Verizon except in the first 5 seconds sometimes. I think it might have been caused by the auto volume leveling feature of the phone though. By the way, echoing isn't caused by the phone talking to more than one tower at a time. Only one tower actually handles your call at a time (yes, with CDMA). The phone does connect to new towers before it switches to them to make sure that the new tower is getting a better signal than the current tower and that everything is kosher, but more than one tower never transmit your call to you or the third party at the same time. ---------------------------- I can't believe that a company would create a mobile without voice dial. Back to Amazon you go Siemens.

02-22-2003, 11:30 AM	#19
Airb330 Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Philadelphia, PA Posts: 3,526 Phone(s): BB 8330 Provider(s): Sprint PCS Devices: iPod Nano (Black), XM Radio Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Images: 3	CDMA Call Degradation I would say 102 is very conservative. The echoing only happens for about the first 10 seconds of any conversation, unless I am at the mall....then it is 24/7. I have just about had it with Verizon and their crap, I swear they only have 10 towers in my state and they rely on them. Soon Sprint is going to out-do them here if they don't come the heck on and build some more. Sprint has a tower way out here in the middle of nowhere, full strength while Verizon was merely at one bar. Too bad that tower is just too far away from my house though [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img]. Oh, Northform I don't have that automatic gain control thing on, it sounds crappy and way too loud most of the time. And I am sorry you don't like your Siemans I see....and yeah I can't comprehend why they would leave out voice dial either [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img].

02-24-2003, 10:09 PM	#21
Airb330 Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Philadelphia, PA Posts: 3,526 Phone(s): BB 8330 Provider(s): Sprint PCS Devices: iPod Nano (Black), XM Radio Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts Images: 3	CDMA Call Degradation I guess Dru, makes sense to me. I only use voice dial when I drive. Otherwise, I'd just rather use the keypad.